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2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop 2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop

07-26-2014 , 10:34 PM
V1: Early forties white male with goatie, headphones in, and reading poker magazine. He is raising ~25% of hands and playing ~60% of hands. Very positionally aware and not afraid of going deep into hands w/ marginal holdings. Has been caught bluffing but also making solid (thin) value bets.

Hero: While I had a more LAGgy image before, I've been card dead and very quiet for the last 1.5 - 2 hours.

Hero has $230, V1 has $550, both been at table for 4-5 hours.

V1 opens $20 from HJ, Hero raises to $70 w/ JJ, V1 calls.

Flop ($140): K87r... V1 checks, Hero checks. I felt like it was a way ahead / way behind scenario and thought I could give a free card and gather more info.

Turn ($140) 5d completes rainbow... V1 bets $75. Hero???

Looking back, I don't think I planned very well re-raising to $70 because it left me w/ an awkward stack size. I would love a line check as well as how to finish given the way I played
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-26-2014 , 10:58 PM
Shove turn. I'm not folding at any point because of one overcard after putting in $70 pre. Enough combo draws in his range on turn for a shove. If he has Kx well then I'm paying it off. I would expect LAG V to get it in pre with AK and probably fold KQ- facing a 3b. He should be more likely to call with SC type hands that can crack big pairs.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-26-2014 , 11:28 PM
Grunch
I wouldn't 3 bet PF since no one called his raise and it allows him to play correctly against you. Plus your 3! sizing sucks since it doesn't really leave you enough space to B/F OTF. OTF, as played, i Cbet $70 and am done with the hand if he calls. OTT, as played to induce aggression from this LAG, I flat the bet and call all river bets unless a Q or an A falls.
Also, we really need to know whether or not the K was part of the FD.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 04:47 AM
Grunch. Interesting spot.

I think by checking the flop we have given our hand away, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

This is a pretty standard cbet -- it may get him to fold a better hand (QQ), and will get value from 9Ts. Our hand has a unique strength against 9T (blocking his outs).

He would've 4-bet AA/KK/AK most of the time pre, and QQ some of the time, and likely would fold KQo, which takes a lot of kings/better hands out of his range. JJ is good here often.

A cbet would fold out many of his worse hands we'd like value from, like 89s/76s. What's interesting is that I think our check likely induces him to bluff these hands which may make stationing a superior value line. We still induce bluffs on the turn/river from T9s. I guess the line kinda sucks against QQ but that's the only hand.

So yeah I'm stationing him for two streets here. We could fold right now, but if we call the turn we must call the river bet no matter its size. It's just a station situation: if he bets small we get good odds, and if he bets big he has more bluffs. Perhaps we should find a fold on a 7. I'm not too worried if an A or Q falls on the river -- KQ/QQ were already beating us and AQo probably gets folded (maybe 4-bet?) preflop...although I might be putting my own thoughts into the villain's mind (I hate calling AQ in 3-bet pots; I find it plays badly.) As for the A, I would assume that he has more of those in his range but there's no A-high flush draw for him to be semi bluffing us with, and he has to shut those down/not bluff them a decent % of the time.

Last edited by dunderstron!; 07-27-2014 at 04:53 AM.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 08:27 AM
I'll add the spoiler, which adds a second question:
Spoiler:
Hero tanks and calls the $75. River is 2d, V1 checks, Hero checks. V1 shows Ad6d for the turned open-ended straight draw


If I am going to call the turn, does it always make more sense to just go all in with not much behind to charge for draws? Otherwise it seems like he knows I'm calling the river, so he gets to decide when to get the last bit in, and saves some money on his missed draws.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 12:37 PM
pretty standard c-bet to me, 75-100 on the flop...as played there is no way im folding turn, im either jamming or calling, actually jamming all day as played, you would only have 85$ behind if you just called, jamming all day as played, but it's a pretty easy c-bet on the flop, can't just call turn you must jam with only 85$ behind...
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 01:40 PM
I'm not allowing a LAGGY player to see the hand through to the river when I get 1/3 of my stack in pre....there's one overcard on the board...not going to get me off this hand given stack sizes and read on villain.

FPS cost you this hand...simply should've 3 bet larger to about $80-$90 and got it all in on the flop.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 01:45 PM
3-bet smaller.

Probably call/call now.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-27-2014 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSUTexan
I'm not allowing a LAGGY player to see the hand through to the river when I get 1/3 of my stack in pre....there's one overcard on the board...not going to get me off this hand given stack sizes and read on villain.

FPS cost you this hand...simply should've 3 bet larger to about $80-$90 and got it all in on the flop.
Hmm I think $90 is better than $70, but now I think that $50 may be better than $90. $90 is great if the LAG calls, but now we are re-raising 4.5 times the original raise and I think LAGs are going to find folds a lot here and I think I'm missing value.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote
07-31-2014 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey913
I'll add the spoiler, which adds a second question:
Spoiler:
Hero tanks and calls the $75. River is 2d, V1 checks, Hero checks. V1 shows Ad6d for the turned open-ended straight draw


If I am going to call the turn, does it always make more sense to just go all in with not much behind to charge for draws? Otherwise it seems like he knows I'm calling the river, so he gets to decide when to get the last bit in, and saves some money on his missed draws.
I was thinking about this. It is a bit results oriented to think you had to shove that turn. I think the turn decision to shove or call just depends on what gets you max value. I know a guy at my poker room who would shove that missed draw on the river 75% of the time, so vs him obviously call/call non-scary rivers is a good line.

That said, because it's a 3bet pot and not a lot of Kings in the villains range, shoving turn likely does fold out QQ and only keep draws, 77, 88, and 78 in his range. And there are more combos of draws than 7s/8s. Barring a read that villain is super aggro and will bluff river with air/missed draws, a shove might have been best here.

FYI - I like the flop check on this board and think it helps us more often get 2 streets of value from worse, whereas a cbet may get us 1 or 0. That's just my opinion.
2/3 NL: JJ in Position vs. super LAG, mediocre flop Quote

      
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