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2/3 math question 2/3 math question

04-08-2015 , 06:34 PM
I'm just a rec player and only so-so with the math side of the game. I ran into this spot last night preflop and while I think it's probably bad, if someone could help me out with an equity calc to see just how bad I'd really appreciate it.

Hero - CO (covers): mid 20's, been playing pretty snug but for some reason I give off a bit of a looser image. Don't have significant history with anyone at the table save for an OMC reg who's not relevant to the hand. Hero has won a few pots without showdown but generally hasn't been all that active.
Hero covers and is in the CO.

V1 - UTG ($121): MAWG, bought in for the min (100) and seems like a pretty stock standard weak passive regfish. Has won a pot or two and starts the hand with 121.

V2 - HJ ($272): interesting character - middle aged Asian guy who speaks little English. On his second full buyin, and seems to just be having a good time playing cards and doesn't care about the money. A good fun aggro fish that we love having on our right.

The hand immediately before, V2 put in a big 3-bet pre and folded to a jam. Didn't seem happy about folding and gave off a bit of an irritated vibe. Has been a little spewy preflop as he just doesn't like to fold.

Preflop:

V1 UTG limps, MP limps, V2 raises to $15 in HJ. Hero looks down at JJ and raises to $43. Folds to V1 UTG who shoves $121 total. V2 thinks for about 5 seconds and shoves $272 total. Hero?

V1 displayed a few of the hallmark limp-shove strength tells, so I assigned him a fairly narrow range of JJ+ with possibly a couple of combos of AK in there too. While I was counting out V2's stack, V1 apparently verbalised that he had QQ, however my question is whether or not I do well enough against V2s range to go after the side pot and hope this is one of those times I bink a J and win the main, too.

I assigned a far wider range for V2 - obv he can have all the QQ+ and AK combos and as such my first instinct was to fold. After thinking about it a little I felt as though I could widen that range to include 77+, A8s+, and AJo+. Maaaaybe even slightly wider but I didn't want to overestimate how spewy he was.

Main pot is 371 before rake, side pot is 151 (only main pot is raked) and I have 43 invested with 229 to call. If the math guys could take over and give me a better idea of the correct play in this spot that'd be great!

Last edited by skillz_2106; 04-08-2015 at 07:03 PM.
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04-08-2015 , 06:51 PM
Don't have a calculator, so this is off the dome, but you're getting about ~1.32:1 on the side pot. V2 was original raiser as well so he could be strong here or trying to ISO the short stack. Doubt you are getting odds directly for the side pot. Getting ~2.95:1 on the total pot but V1 almost certainly has you destroyed unless you hit the J. All the way to the river you have ~4:1 against hitting the J.

I wouldn't 3! PF with JJ as it bloats the pot with a vulnerable hand that has little chance to improve. AP, fold and count yourself blessed to get out after only putting $43 in.
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04-08-2015 , 07:01 PM
3betting JJ there was player specific. Definitely not a default in these games.
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04-08-2015 , 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skillz_2106
... my question is whether or not I do well enough against V2s range to go after the side pot and hope this is one of those times I bink a J and win the main, too.
Yeah, I'd call.

Your odds in the side pot are 1:1.

Side pot is 0 (dry) until V2 puts chips into it. Then you have to call off the matching # of number of chips. So.. 1:1.

That means you need 50% equity. You're probably at least 60/40. The conservative range you posted suggests 58%. So let's use that.

The main pot is something like 121 + 121 + 43 + 3 + 3 + 2 = $293 when it comes back to you, so you're getting 293:78 = 3.75:1.

Given that you have nearly 20% equity against QQ (20% equity is the same as 4:1), that's probably pretty close to break-even vs V1. Once you include V2 and his possible over pairs + over cards with equity against JJ, you get to around 16% equity, or 5:1, so the main pot by itself is likely not profitable (again, you're getting 3.75:1 but probably have ~5:1).

EV of main pot: 371 * 0.16 (our guess of your equity) = 59 - 78 (your call) = -19
EV of side pot: 302 * 0.58 (our guess of your equity) = 175 - 151 (your call) = 24

Total EV = +5.

Yeah, I figured it was pretty close to break-even. And +5 is break-even. I would call. Better to give action than nit fold, and I think there is a decent chance it's +EV and at least break-even. I also think V2 could be wider than you're guessing, and calling is also more fun than folding.

Also, the guy verbalized QQ before you made your play. He probably does have QQ, but that's also not 100% certain.
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04-08-2015 , 07:53 PM
I didn't hear him verbalise his hand but my buddy sitting next to me did. Wasn't really relevant either as it was V2 and the side pot that was going to determine my play.

Does knowing for certain that V1 has QQ specifically change hero's decision at all? I mean for card removal purposes and such - I'd obv prefer he have AA or KK as it helps to remove a few combos of monsters from V2's range.
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04-08-2015 , 07:59 PM
Yeah. Removing 2 A's or 2 K's bumps your equity a few points, and while it's not a major difference, it'll probably very so slightly push you into more certain +EV rather than hovering at break-even. V1 having QQ is still good in that it blocks V2 having QQ.

Overall it won't make a major difference in your ability to make a good decision at the table, and I'd still be guessing around 60/40 against V2, but good thinking.
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04-09-2015 , 12:04 AM
Thanks for that EV calc breakdown in your post before, just the kind of info I was after
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