$2/3 $500 effective

V1 MP $500 30’s WG unknown. seems like a decent active player.

V2 LP $500 $30 BG reg. OK player. Plays here a lot. I assume break even or probably a little better.

H $520 BB (we all have right around $500-525 to start the hand).

OTTH
V1 raises $20. Standard. V2 flats, BTN flats, H calls from BB w/ 86hh closing the action.

Flop $75
Th9h5h.

H checks planning for c/r of V1. V1 checks, V2 goes $60, BTN folds. H? With V2’s sizing and V1 uncapped what’s the move here. H has $500 behind.

Fold pf

I know ur "closing the action" but personally I'm not calling a 7x raise pre with a med suited one gapper from the BB.

With 165 BB's, I wouldn't mind getting it in if I really had to there. It's not like he was described as a nit and is only re-raising with the nuts. Raise/call to like 185.

Raise to $200, call if either player shoves. Shove the turn if a clean card comes (non heart non board pairing). I would not give 2 players a chance to draw out on you. If they have a better flush, it's a cooler (you have an out to the SF).

Just call. We're either way ahead or way behind. Nobody's folding a draw to a better flush if you raise, unless you go stupid-huge, in which case you're only getting called by better.

As it is, you're going to look strong when you just call. So just call, and see what V1 does.

If V1 raises, fold. If V1 folds, we can check-call turn, and lead river. If the turn is an offsuit ace, I'd just lead out, praying V2 has AhXo.

There's no reason to lose our minds and blast off here. We flat called closing the action pre. We can have some low-middling flushes here, but we're not going to have very many nut flushes.

V2 can have a ton of AXo bluffs with the Ah, but he's not going to have a ton of nut flushes when he just flat calls pre. He'll also have very few worse flushes. Like, we have the 8h and 6h in our hand, and the Th, 9h, and 5h are on board. What are we hoping he'll have here? 74hh?

If V2 just has the naked Ah in his hand, he's drawing to 7 outs twice. He'll suck out by the river maybe 25%-30% of the time. Meanwhile he might barrel turn and river with his bluffs, or feel like he has to call off if he spikes an ace on the turn.

Otherwise, all we're doing by raising is folding out V2's bluffs and weak value, and ensuring he continues with a stronger range.

cant do anything but call

pf is bad

Fold pre, call flop.

Don't call or raise pre flop. Don't raise and don't fold flop.

Leading flop could also be an option

Everybody so nitty on here. I dont mind the call preflop when we are closing the action and getting a great price. Its not like we are flatting heads up or in the middle.

Raise to 200 and jam non heart turns. Are we really scared of flush over flush? We're really not that deep when the standard open is 20...

@OP is this played in Florida by any chance?

“Getting a great price’ is fish talk. Youre calling $17 to win $58, so youre basically getting 3:1 against 3 opponents. Its like saying betting on a below average team in a 64 person tournament at 63:1 is a “great price’ and so you gotta do it.


And yes youre scared of a flush, its multiway on a monotone board, what do you think puts all their money in that you beat? Its the exact reason SC and S1g suck multiway, you just hit flushes and trips to either win a small pot or get stacked.

A raise to 7x should basically be entirely 3 bet or fold territory. This gameplan isnt nitty, its aggressive and splashy, most players are putting in the same amount of money as me or less but with a looser passive fishy bad range because of the myth of multiway odds to call. 3 betting here is a WAY smarter move than calling.

This is live 2/3, people will stack off with as little as top pair + heart here as well as 2p, sets, etc. We're not crazy deep here. Its far more likely we are stacking a T9 or 55 than getting overflushed here. Thats why you can call 86s getting 3 to 1 closing the action. We're risking little with high implied odds. People get into trouble playing these hands when they go crazy w top pair or 2 pair.

People get into trouble with these hands when they blast off with a weak flush on a monotone board, not when they have 2 pair. We'd always prefer to make 2P or a straight with low-midding SC's than make a flush, unless we're making it on a later street.

If we make a flush, we'd rather make it on the turn, or even better, the river, when our opponents are likely to be putting money in on earlier streets with made hands that are going to lose to the flush we make on a later street, when they can't fold, because they don't believe we sucked out.

Anyone eager to pile money in on a monotone flop probably has a flush. What worse flushes will our opponents have that flat called pre? 74s? 43s? No thinking player is going to stack off here with 2P. How many 2P combos are there here, that will even call a bet, much less call a jam? Maybe three T9s combos that might be dumb enough to stack off, at most.

At a minimum, someone stacking off will usually have a big PP with a better flush draw, or a set hoping to boat up, and even those hands are going to find a fold at least some of the time when we jam.

Just because the PFR checked, that doesn't mean he missed. There are four people in the hand, and he's OOP to two of his opponents. If he c-bets, he's just going to fold out a lot of weaker hands, but if he checks, someone might bet a worse hand for value/protection, or make an ill-advised bluff.

It's not because we're scared of a bigger flush though that is one of the reasons we don't prefer raising.

We can raise and get action from worse hands. I think our main disagreement is that. I say people will stack off with worse hands and you think they only stack off w a flush here. Why wouldnt we want to raise if we get called by worse hands?

To keep opponents' ranges wider.

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I should have put in the description that apparently H is a ****ing idiot.

Results:
H shoves thinking it denies equity to any higher hearts or sets while also looking fishy. V1 calls w/ AKhh and V2 calls with 55. H ends up in 3rd place.

I’ve definitely value owned myself more than a few times in the last ~80 hrs and certainly some of it is coolering but more of it is H playing poorly.

You're not an idiot. You made a common mistake many players make.

A low or middling flush on a monotone flop, is basically just a bluff catcher, whenever opponents really aren't going to have worse flushes.

Live and learn. Play on.

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I guess im the only one but i still disagree with the group here. I said raise and get called by worse hands including sets. And that is exactly what happened. Just so happened that the first villain that checked also flopped a flush. Thats a cooler.

huh it's usually the best hand it's like 200 to 1 that someone flopped a bigger flush

Fold pre. I get that odds look good etc. but I'd much rather call here with say 77 than 86hh, because suited connectors/gappers play so badly OOP

Can you guys offer thoughts on how to defend against V’s AhXx part of their range? For example give one of the V’s AhKx and the other a weak no draw hand. What’s our optimal play there?

Lack of equity realization OOP, bad odds and being dominated by villans' combined ranges are a thing.

Also, the reason you don't raise this flop is because you neither have the nut advantage, nor you have more flushes than villains. If anything, depending on how wide villains' ranges are, they can have more flushes if they play hands like K2s, Q5s, J6s, which presumably you don't.

I dont see how we can say that. We should have more flushes than everybody else because we are closing the action in BB we should always have more suited hands. None of the other villains are supposed to be flatting stuff that we can when in BB.

We should actually have the nut advantage because we flat every suited ace in the BB and villains shouldnt be.