Start by checking nut bad turn cards. Doesnt matter how deep you are.

While both of these turn cards ain't great, none of them are the nut worse either (as flush draws have still busted).

It definitely matters how deep we are. We should be doing quite different things with 1/4 PSB left vs 4 PSB left. In both of these cases, we're much closer to the 1/4 PSB case. And if we hadda PSB the flop, we'd be even closer.

GimoG

GG, the A, K and Q flush cards are all blocked in both hands. That severely cuts down on the number of flush draw combos.

MikeStarr is an idiot which is why he doesn’t think it’s relevant.

If old guy is passive and doesn't bluff or thin value bet you can x/f the turn in both hands but particularly hand 1.

Or if he's bluffy we can x/c.

If he's somewhere in between play is fine I guess except I hate you're playing so short.

Standard, stop focusing on bad beats

I don’t know why but I feel uncomfortable betting PSB without the absolute nuts like a flopped set, because I feel MUBSY of someone having 2p+ when I have TP if they continue. I am a huge advocate of bet/folding those type of hands so I don’t like to commit my stack or lose too much with one pair hands.

Although I see some of the winning players bet close to PSB on drawy boards all the time with TP/overpairs.

Neither of these are really that draw heavy since the A K and Q flush draws are all accounted for.

If you had like KKsc on 762hhd or AKdd on A98ccd a PSB would be more appropriate but I still probably just 3/4 PSB it.

There's just not much you beat that can call a PSB in these hands IMO.

For me, this all comes down to commitment, which mostly comes down to how big a percentage of our stack we got in preflop (and sometimes against how many players we ended up against). The bigger the percentage of stack we got in against fewer players, the more we should feel committed. If we feel committed, then PSB and commit and never fold. If we don't feel committed, then don't PSB and also give yourself the option of bet/folding.

I would consider myself more-or-less committed in both of these hands due to the preflop result (i.e. low SPR) unless the board flopped/turned horrendously.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Both flops contain a flush draw, both contain straight draws, and both have high cards. These aren't exactly dry boards. There's a *ton* of worse hands that can call a bet, and it's highly unlikely anyone is calling a 3/4 PSB with a hand that isn't willing to call a PSB.

GimoG

People are calling a PSB with gutshots (hand 1)? Or max J high flush draws? Maybe on the flush draws, but this is raised pot where the A K and Q are all not in play, leaving like 8 flush draws unless they're calling any 2 suited.

The 2p combos is what I'm worried about here. And there's no need to bet PSB with these stacks. Bet smaller to keep ranges wider, bet safe turns, check nasty turns.

Are people calling 3/4 PSBs with gutshots? If so, might as well bet a PSB cuz they are calling that too, right?

If your opponents are folding any flush draw on the flop to a PSB, then your opponents are different than mine.

I would totally agree with smaller bet sizing / keeping ranges wider / betting safe turns / checking nasty ones *if* we don't consider ourselves committed. In both of these spots here, OP still bet less than I would on the flop and yet still left himself with an extremely small amount left on the turn. With OPs sizing, we left ourselves with just 59% and 55% PSBs left (we're committed); with PSB sizing on the flop, we leave ourselves with even more trivial committment (19% and 33% PSBs left). We're committed on the flop, imo, and should play the hand fast especially on drawy boards to get the rest of the chips in trivially by the turn.

GimoG

That's pretty bad calling a PSB with a gutshot given the lack of implied odds here. FD maybe there just aren't that many when the three most important cards are accounted for. I thought your opponents weren't braindead morons? But now you're telling me they call PSBs with gutshots this shallow?

We are not necessarily committed just because we invested X% of our stack already. If we get nut low turns vs passive villains who shove it's okay to fold TPTK.

I don't know if this guy is sufficiently passive, but putting in ~1/3 of our stack OTF does not mean we must auto stack off on the turn.

I think you're missing my point. My point is *if* they are going to call a 3/4 PSB (which I believe is what you're recommending) then they are going to call a PSB. You're either up against an idiot or you're not. An idiot is going to call almost any sized bet (and certainly any bet <= PSB) with a gutshot. A non-idiot isn't going to call any bet with a gutshot regardless of the bet size (unless that bet size is incredibly lol small). Therefore there is no difference in calling frequencies for both idiots and non-idiots to a 3/4 PSB versus a PSB. So, if we're committed, make the PSB instead of the 3/4 PSB. Idiots will idiot, non-idiots will non-idiot, at the exact same frequency to both bet sizes.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Well, depending on what X% is, then yes, we simply may be committed; that's the whole point of commitment. If you get in 99% of your stack by the turn and the nut worse card comes, are you folding for the remaining 1% of your stack getting 200+:1? Of course not. So now it's just a matter of everyone's own comfort level of what X% they feel committed at as well as how nut worse the turn card is against who they happen to be up against.

If we hadda PSB the flop in both cases, we woulda been left with just lol 19% PSB and 33% PSB bets left on turn cards where the main draw (the flush draw) didn't complete. I'm feeling pretty committed; if you don't, then I guess we have quite different tolerance levels of when we should feel committed.

GcluelesscommitmentnoobG

That makes no sense. Why not just go allin then? They won’t call a 1.25 PSB any less often than a .75 PSB, and they won’t call an allin any less often than a 1.25 PSB!

I think there is actually an argument for that.

However, I'm well aware there is a slippery slope argument of "if they are calling $X then they are calling $X+1" which leads to the conclusion "they are calling $1Million". And I'm also aware that $$$ do mean something (i.e. a 3/4 PSB vs PSB into a $10 pot obviously makes no difference whatesover in a typical 1/3 NL game whereas there is more of a difference into a $1000 pot). But I'm not going to nitpick over this; the bottom line is there is no significant different in calling frequency between a $45 bet into $60 vs a $60 bet into $60 in a 1/3 NL game; if you disagree, then we disagree on a fundamental level and simply won't see eye-to-eye on this.

GimoG