This hand went down at a 5-handed 2/2 NL home game last night where I got into what I felt was a pretty marginal spot.

Hero ($200) is a regular at this game, image is TAG/borderline nit, but the table is starting to realize that sometimes I’m just exploiting my image and that I don’t always have it when I bet/raise after the flop. Have not played many hands so far this session, and the few that I have played have generally been taken down with a cbet on the flop or turn.

Villain ($300) is the only other good player at the table. Similar style to hero in that he usually plays pretty tight, but is certainly capable of aggression with semi-bluffs and sometimes complete air. Also capable of making big calls with marginal hands if someone’s line seems bluffy. Hero and villain generally make a habit of staying out of each other’s way in this game, although we have played some big pots recently (not this session, but within the past few weeks): one that was boat over boat on a double-paired board (Villain’s J8 vs. Hero’s AJ on a JJ866 board), one where Villain bet/3bet a naked flush draw when Hero had bottom set (Villain hit his draw on the turn and scooped the pot), and one where Villain turned quads and Hero rivered a boat.

On to the hand:

Hero is in the BB w T9. UTG folds, two weak players in the CO and BTN limp, Villain makes it $12 from the SB, Hero 3bets to $25, both limpers fold and villain calls.

Flop ($50): A 8 7.

Villain donks out for $35, Hero calls.

Turn ($120): A 8 7 8.

Villain checks. Hero ???

This hand obviously could just be a fold preflop, but I decided to 3bet for a few reasons: (1) I felt that Villain is raising with a wide range in this spot to get me out of the hand and play against one or two of the limpers, (2) I expect everyone will give me credit for a strong hand due to my image, and while villain is almost guaranteed to call the extra $13 and see a flop, I’m pretty sure that both limpers will fold, and that I can take the pot away from villain a lot of the time if his hand doesn’t improve, and (3) if I happen to flop 2 pair+ and villain happens to catch a piece as well, my hand will be disguised and I may be able to win a big pot.

I wasn’t sure what to make of villain’s donk on the flop. He definitely has a lot of mid pocket pairs in his range here, but I think this villain can also play Ax, 2 pair, or a set this way some of the time. I don’t think I’m getting the right price to call just to hit the OESD, but I thought my call would look a lot like Ax or a flush draw, so I decided there were enough scare cards that could come on the turn where I could get villain to release his hand to make this a profitable call.

I really wasn’t sure what to make of villain’s check on the turn. I think this line is consistent with a mid pair that was trying to represent the A on the flop and has now shut down, but villain is definitely capable of having a lot of value hands here as well. I’ve only got slightly more than a pot sized bet left at this point, so I think the only two options are either to check and take a free card, or just go ahead and shove to capitalize on any fold equity.

Would be really interested to hear people’s thoughts on my line so far, and how we should proceed after villain checks the turn.

oh my...with these stack depths pre is a disaster. 3b is bad and sizing is worse.

Just check turn and try and realize your equity...

Agree pre is really bad.

As played, on the turn though, how do you feel about betting just to set up a river shove on pretty much all non club rivers?

He looks like he was trying to set his price on the flop with XXcc and the board pairing isn't really a good card for him. Good place to try and empty the clip on the river as a bluff to move him off KQcc KJcc and other such things? Or are just sending good money after bad with that sort of idea?

Edit: Ugh. I thought we were both $300 deep. Not $200 deep.
Yeah, wtf. This hand is just ugly and stupid all around to be honest.

If I was going to 3bet here (which I never would, I would just fold and own him IP when I slightly better hands, and his SB raise can actually be pretty strong here) I would make it something like $35 pre, $55 on every flop and ship most turn cards. But really, we just don't have the stack depth we need to be making this 3bet bluff profitable with the large opening sizes that most people use at 1/2.
And there isn't really a reason to. We can get fat value by 3betting solid holdings when we are short stacked.
And then think about opening up once we get 150+ BB deep.

This hand is just a disaster all around to the river, especially on a paired board. I cannot even figure your way of thinking. It feels like my head is spinning.

Drawing hands are problematic because most of the times you risk money to barely break even like would be a 13 outs on the flop (flush-draw + gutshot) vs. a made hand. While having a large number of outs can entice you to participate in a big pot, you do not yet have a big hand. In many cases, you don’t even have a made hand. It makes sense to look for hands like these in tournaments because they give you a pretty good chance to win a big pot, and you might run out of chips by the time you get a chance to hold a hand with so much potential. However, in a cash game you should not invest heavily merely in your hand’s potential; you must play big, made hands that already have your opponents beaten.

Even an OESD + FD is a disaster setup. Suppose you are the player who is holding 7♠ 6♠ on a flop of A♠ 8♥ 5♠. Your drawing hand could be up against a solid hand such as A♥ K♣ (top pair/top kicker), but with 15 outs and two cards to come, you have almost a 60 percent chance of making your hand. Unfortunately, when a lot of players think about a 60 percent to 40 percent advantage, they think they are holding a monster hand. Sure, if they push all-in they get the added advantage of their opponents possibly folding. However, if they get called, they have all their chips on the line with only a small edge to win. This is a very high-risk play that isn’t necessary to win in cash games.

I appreciate the bluntness of the replies so far. I'm sure you guys are right that the preflop 3bet is -EV, but if we know that the limpers are going to fold, villain is going to flat with everything but AA/KK, and we're going to have position post flop, can it really be THAT bad?

Also, since villain is someone who I play against regularly, is there something to be said for occasionally 3betting with junky hands against this guy to enable us to get paid off down the road when we do have a premium hand?

Sent from my mobile device using 2 + 2 forums.

Your thinking is a very high-risk play that isn’t necessary to win in cash games. You never can be sure the limpers will fold. How can you figure out that? - You may win couple times some small pots but if just one time you get called in a 3bet pot and lose all of it.