I believe I can spoil the ending now.

As I said, the flop came down Q85hhh, and I folded to a 1200 c-bet.

He had 74o, which validated my theory that he was cbetting his entire range. He says it was the first time he has ever cold 4b bluffed someone OOP with a junk hand live and that he felt the time was right given the dynamic.

That said, am I correct to want to see a non Axx/monotone flop before getting it in (Kxx is not as terrible)? I believe that I can confidently get JJ in against this villain under these circumstances, as all AK combos are now post-flop bluffs. And being in position, I still get to capture over half my villain's stack.

Yes, let's not 3-bet a fish when we have pocket jacks because we're worried about cold 4-bets that happen at a high frequency in a live poker game at the casino.

Listen to zachvac he's given you some good advice in this thread, it seems like a lot of your logic is fundamentally flawed to be quite blunt.

Call/call is way better than shoving over his bet as you let him keep bluffing rather than allowing him to fold and he only calls you when he has you (maybe he levels himself and calls 88-TT or w/e if he cold 4b it preflop or maybe occasionally puts you on a draw and calls with A high but that's not gonna happen that much either).

I don't think I've ever seen a good player cold 4-bet oop to 900 (with stacks like this in a spot like this) with a mid-pair (probably because it's fairly atrocious)---> shoving pre loses a lot of it's luster. These 4-bets are historically always AA, KK, AK or air. OP's read (omg lol live read) was that villain was on the lighter side (AK or air). In order to best exploit this lightness, OP chose to flat in position and then get it in (over the pending c-bet) on any reasonable flop. There are a lot of reasonable flops for JJ, OP just didn't get one. Variance.

Yeah but there's more than one way to "get it in". I prefer the one that keeps his air range the widest and lets him put the most money in with said air. That means not shoving flop.

I'm not sure there's enough money/mystery left for villain to fire a turn barrel. If there is, I'd flat some of the reasonable flops and ship others. Also, ime the oop spewtard (fml ) calls pretty light getting better than 3 to 1 after his c-bet gets shipped on.

4/7o is part of his range? Sounds like my kind of game...

Having read the results I still say fold. If you are going to make a habit of not folding jj to cold 4bets you are going to develop leaks.

Take it from me, I think right now I am pretty much the leak master

So he showed you the bluff and then you guys discussed his oop 4bet range after the hand? Did he know that you bluffed him on the K5 hand? What is going on with all this info sharing?

Would villain expect the JJ hand to get checked to showdown if he gave up on the flop or would he expect you to monkey around/thin value on the flop or turn?

I'd rather 3bet AJ than JJ here.

As played, I fold pre.

flat first time around

I don't think you can fold to A or K-high flop if it rolls out if you call pre. This flop? Maybe.

Hmmm...this post sounds curiously like DGAF was villain. That is funny if true.

Zachvac pwnage in this thread...I like his line the best by far.

As OP said, I think villain's range has to be AA-KK, AK (maybe QQ's and AQ sometimes) or a total bluff. If you just call the 4-bet, the pot will be 1900 and you got 3100 left. You know he's gonna be c-betting 100% of the time. So what are flop are you hoping for? If you flop a set (11%),you will win at least 1900+ c-bet from a bluff and probably 5000 from AA-KK. However, when you don't flop a set and he c-bets youre put to a tough decision, even if you flop an overpair to the flop youre still not sure if youre good or not. I guess if an A or K comes on the flop then that makes it less likey villain holds an A or a K on his hand. Still, it would be tough to comitt to your hand

If you call the 4 bet and then call the 1200 bet on the flop the pot will be 3300 on the turn leaving you 1900 behind, he can't expect you to fold on the turn so my guess is he would shut down with all of his bluffs. I agree with zachbach don't shove to his c-bet, let him put more money in if he has air.

The fact that it's button/CO and that he made it a pretty absurd sizing (he should really be making it 750ish with his value hands trying to get you to peel light or induce some kind of spazz from you, 900 just looks a lot like he wants the hand to be over whether its with AK or air) leans this way more towards getting it in.

5bet CIB and just jamming are pretty close, I think jamming is slightly better since you're not going to induce a spazz 6bet by air just about ever and shipping it in CAN occasionally get him to level himself into folding AK some small percent of the time. Plus live a shove here feels 'bluffier' than a small 5bet since he'll probably assume the latter is usually with AA/KK, so its more conducive to getting him to feel owned.

I'd also flat sometimes but with JJ you'll just have to sigh-fold so many flops, with QQ its far more of an option.

C'mon.... the object of this game is to make money.

You basically said you're readless and don't even know if villain is capable of 4bet bluffing.

That means you're going to make a lot of mistakes postflop if you call.

That means shoving over his 4bet is either marginally +EV if he likes to 4bet cold a lot.... or totally atrocious.

Furthermore, my guess is that if you have long history with villain, and don't know if he's capable of 4bet bluffing....well that prolly means he's not.

Just fold pre. You said you've got position on a fish in a deep game.... I see no reason to go broke here, not to speak about the fact that you probably won't be able to play your best game if you happen to make a huge mistake....

edit : on a side note, i really don't get why 5bet/calling is a viable option.... if you wanna raise, you want to shove, and give him an opportunity to make incorrect hero folds. him folding AK here is huge, not to speak about QQ and eventually KK.

I think we have plenty of play room on the flop. Not even thinking about sets either. i flat. It really helps with your K5s flat range as well cinching that up.

Im prolly not giving up much postflop until either super convinced or AKQ flop.

I also cannot imagine that this villain is not capable of 3x cold 4 betting with a wide range either polarized or just wide high card range. We have position, plenty cash behind and im ready to get into the tuffer spots that some may try and avoid. But i think there is where real value can be. He is the one who is OOP and must decide on barreling off --or even calling off almost 175bb or so.

i didnt see this, but would call this flop bet about always vs him.

i was villian, sizing pre was probably bad, i rarely show but i wanted to tilt him and having a cold4b bluff range is good for the image