Villain in the hand is competent but can do some weird stuff. Other 2 players are both fish which is why I flat instead of 3b pf. Stacks are ~8k.

Villain opens to 80 UTG, We flat JJ OTB and both blinds fold.

Flop is 2-3-6 rainbow. Villain checks, Hero bets 80, Villain check/raises to 300. Hero...

I like the flat. I'd prob bet $140 unless there is some history that makes $80 not look weak or you really understand his bluffing frequency/style.

as played I fold and don't tell anyone. This comes from years of experience of JJ not ever being good in this spot. Its super exploitable obviously but nobody needs to know and I just never see people turning AX into a bluff like this.

This is an interesting spot.

I don't play 10/20 a lot, so I might just should shut my mouth, but at 5/10 this villains move is often 77,88,99,1010.

Some live players like to check raise here when they feel like their bet on the flop looks like a standard missed-the-flop cbet and a competent player yet to act behind can raise them off of it. If you're the villain, checking, letting someone bet, and check raising, commits more to the pot, but has a much higher likelihood of winning the money there, and not getting you out of having to play more streets deep with a decent player. A different take on 'protect my hand.'

When I see this line with the hands I mentioned, their thinking is usually to get rid of opponents with two overs rather than trying to make a better hand fold.

BUT

A competent but 'capable of weird stuff' player could easily take the same line with AA,KK,QQ to try and sneak some value out of you if your the guy capable of leading the flop here with 56, or your own small over pair. OR if he thinks you're the type of guy that is just to embarrassed to fold to a check raise. (these players exist live.....we've all seen them)

In any case, it puts you in a tough spot no matter what you do. The key to trying to narrow it down would be what you think he thinks of you.

I agree with the poster above, that this is very very rarely going to be an AX bluff, and if you aren't comfortable with playing out the rest of the hand then there is nothing wrong with mucking the jacks along with pleasant 'oh man, you caught me' and being damn sure you never let someone know what it was you folded.

While I do sympathise with the sentiment of folding here, as someone who has gotten owned in similar situations, folding here is pretty criminal.

Think about it. We are 400bbs deep, in position, with an extremely wide range on a board that is connected and can run out absolutely AIDS for our opponent's weighted range. How we can consider folding is beyond me.

I think 3-balling this flop is not a great option here for reasons manifold and pretty obvious. We should flat the check raise. We stand to learn a lot about our opponent's hand on the turn by his action and sizing.

I think these are the exact spots where it's mandatory to use a GTO framework for thinking about hands. The fact of the matter is that everyone in this thread knows that folding here with JJ is exploitable as ****. Just because your opponents don't know you just did it, doesn't make it any less bad.

So what happened next????

I like a flat most of the time without other reads. You're deep enough to get OOP to 3-barrel with 77-QQ, AQs/AK. If villain is creative/weird enough to C/R his own lead, he might be a limit player taking this line with those hands, but I rarely see AA/KK here from someone who is competent.

I call the flop. Turn is a 4, villain bets 600 and I call. River A, villain bets 1200, Hero...

I think I fold river, gross spot tho. I don't think you can call profitably in the long run against a good balanced player.

I think raising river would be pretty beastly if he is capable of folding anything. He shouldn't have many combos of 5x utg, and if he does, I would imagine he just leads flop with most of his hands that have a 5 in them on that flop. You can have a 5 easily with your line.

Forgot to mention in OP for some reason but we are 4 handed.

Id call and reevaluate. Hes either bluffing or nutted with sets or straight. You have implied odds to catch an overset if he's got a set. And you're ahead if he's bluffing.

I'd fold river.

Not raising because we didn't raise the turn.

I don't think you have to raise a 5 on the turn.

call flop, fold turn.

prob fold river. I dont really have any idea what his range is but I dont think its a blufff that often.

I call the flop and fold the turn. The flop c/r can be an F around move, once you call you tell him that you've got a real hand and his turn bet says he doesn't care

Tough spot here, I can see why you chose the post title. Seems like this is a spot that it would be easy to feel owned. V has put good pressure on you and has put you in a position to make a mistake.

FLOP:
What does the V what you to do? Check raise on the flop is almost always a "Dear Hero, I hereby cordially invite you to fold", IME. That would indicate no hand, a semi-bluff, or a venerable hand. Of course, its possible he speculated with his raise and has a str8 or legitimately flopped a set. But I see this a fire the flop, net check raise.

I call 90% of the time here and raise 10%. I don't like a raise, but I like a fold less. I don't fold this hand to the player you described here.

TURN:
Yuk. Many semi-bluffs got there as two pair or a straight. A call here is committing a lot of chips, as you must know that he is firing on almost any river, either with a legit hand or to continue a bluff.

You have called two raises and bet once when you could have checked. Anyone betting a hand that you can beat either hates money or really has a good read on you and mad skill.

I give up here and fold almost always.

RIVER:
Even some air got there. Ug, ug, ug. But now, there is some poker to play. I don't mind a raise here if you believe that the V is bluffing at this point. If his bluff FREQ is high enough I think there is too much value in a call to raise, where your risking chips for no reward. There is a strong argument for a raise on the river however if you are sure that your opponent
1) Has you beat when you call.
2) Is capable of folding hands that do not have a 5.

The lack of a turn raise does not concern me greatly as calling the turn and raising the river is a legit line with a 5 here.

Tough spots either way.

You explained the lack of PF re-raise, but I feel like that would have made this hand much easier to play, and reduced the risk of making a mistake with it.

How did the hand end?

4 handed, you can basically throw out a lot of FR strategy. Essentially, the raiser is in the CO, meaning his range is way wider than the impression of saying he's the UTG.

It comes down to that you're WA/WB on the flop. If he's got two overs, he only has 6 outs. You can afford to let him get a card. If he's ahead, you have 2 outs. You desperately want a free card. I'd check behind. I'm not looking to play JJ for a lot of money.

As played, if you're calling the raise on the flop, you're committed to calling this turn. If he has the balls to c/r with air, he's not giving up on the turn. On the river, a lot of his air range hit. Of course, he knows the ace is a huge scare card against your range as played, so he could 3barrel. But that's why I don't bet the flop.

Checking behind the flop seems like super results orientated thinking

Never folding to the c/r. I most likely flat and bet or raise most turns. I fold when he leads the 4 card straight though.

If opener is competent and other 2 players are fishy, we should always be 3 betting. We would love villain to fold and have a weak player in the blinds flat.

It depends how fishy the blinds are. In OP the blinds aren't so fishy that they'll just call any raise and reraise pre, so he flats.

I'm not saying WE do, but in villain's eyes it will look very suspicious.

Based on these responses I'm going to start check raising flops a lot more against players capable of making big calls. I rarely see JJ being good here at 5/10 (nobody cr AA or wants to give a free card).

Your perceived range is pretty weak here (standard bet w nothing) but a good villain has to know that as well so why would he check raise? Unless he thinks you're thinking on that level in which case it's a great play.

It really depends on the player, image ad game flow in this particular hand.

Haha, I just knew someone was going to say check back flop...

The resulto orientus in this forum never seizes to amaze moi.

I would cbet bigger here, but other than that I play this hand the same on every street
and fold now almost always. Other brick rivers would be a lot more interesting I think.

Checking back the flop is ******ed.