Not much to really to go on, H just sat down and watched 2 hands before this so the button could pass.
$400 eff(I sat down with $400, literally played no hands til this)
Couple limps to H in CO w/KsQc and H raise to $20. 4 people call starting from the blinds.
Flop($100): KcJc2d
Checks to me and I bet $40. Folds to the main V who c/r to $120.
Folds to me.
Before this hand, people were talking about V being aggressive/not folding his flush draws. He’s a young looking Asian, hoodied up, had a stack of $600ish starting this hand. I elect to call and see a turn. He never has KK,JJ, AK here, thinking maybe a weaker K, flush draw, maybe bottom set.
Absent a read we realistically only beat flush draws. I can’t imagine he’s leading a worse king here except maybe KTss. We lose to KJ, 22 etc. I wouldn’t go by table chatter here to make this decision. If he plays draws aggressively he plays sets the same I bet. I probably fold here.
What position is V in? Did he limp/call pre. or just call your CO raise from the blinds?
What's the max buyin?
Having the Qc is maybe not as bad as it seems if he's limp/called pre. as I'd expect his range to be NFD, 22 and maybe some 6c5c type hands. In the blinds he could have more QcTc/Qc9c ... but even that is only 2-3 normal combos. and at best 6 more wild ones (but also at least 3 combos. of KJ).
Given just the info of "He’s a young looking Asian, hoodied up, had a stack of $600ish" would make me think KQ shouldn't fold.
The downbet on turn makes a lot of sense with lots of draws and not much sense with KJ/22, unless he has some read.
Table talk isn't gold, but combined with the above...
I would be very tempted to shove turn, as lots of people don't fire blank rivers and there are a lot of non-blank rivers. Also we can reload first hand and pretend we hate money, are stupid and always pay off with nothing or whatever.
What position is V in? Did he limp/call pre. or just call your CO raise from the blinds?
What's the max buyin?
Having the Qc is maybe not as bad as it seems if he's limp/called pre. as I'd expect his range to be NFD and 22. In the blinds he could have more QcTc/Qc9c ... but even that is only 2-3 normal combos. and at best 6 more wild ones.
Given just the info of "He’s a young looking Asian, hoodied up, had a stack of $600ish" would make me think KQ shouldn't fold.
The downbet on turn makes a lot of sense with lots of draws and not much sense with KJ/22, unless he has some read.
Table talk isn't gold, but combined with the above...
I would be very tempted to shove turn, as lots of people don't fire blank rivers and there are a lot of non-blank rivers. Also we can reload first hand and pretend we hate money, are stupid and always pay off with nothing or whatever.
He was utg+1 so he limped/call. Max BI is $500. The downbet made me think he was tryna price his draw at the time.
I'm guessing the preflop result is unexpected, so otherwise I'm cool with preflop (although I don't hate overlimping as much as everyone else would).
SPR is now a fairly small 4 and we've got TP2K on a drawy board very multiway. Not a great spot, imo, as there are lots of opportunities to make huge mistakes (getting it in with the worst of it having given everyone awesome odds versus not protecting our hand well enough postflop when we have the best of it). I pretty much go out of my way preflop to avoid these spots because I think everything we do postflop kinda sucks.
Anyways, as played I probably just fold the flop and move on with life. We're facing a commitment decision here as we'll be putting in over 1/3rd of our stack, and I mostly don't like stacking off having given everyone awesome 24+:1 IO preflop.
As played, I can only assume we called the flop to entice him to barrel when behind and to get it in on a blank, so with just a 3/4 PSB left I guess follow thru with the (assumed?) plan.
The decision point is on the flop. Once you decide that he is FOS enough to call, you're committed. Adding in that the turn is a blank, the villain is a young asian, he bet small enough to give him pot odds if he has a draw, I'd just shove the turn. Look at it from his perspective. If he has a made hand, why is he giving you pot odds to call with your potential FD?
This is a very check-raisable flop. If you don't think he has any KK/JJ/AK which is a reasonable assumption in some cases, then you have to call down. He can do this with KJ and 22 which you lose to, but also Kx, QT, all club draws and BDFD+gutshot ie hands like ATdd (which can barrel turn with the additional equity). I'm going nowhere and it's probably a close decision whether to call down or shove the turn.
If your opponent is a weak player who can have hands like JJ in their range then this becomes closer to a fold
Villain sizing on both flop and turn is a little suspect - combined with information that villain is known to get OOL i don't mind stacking off a little lighter.
Villain sizing on both flop and turn is a little suspect - combined with information that villain is known to get OOL i don't mind stacking off a little lighter.
Technically atp we don’t know if he actually gets OOL, just what the table, they could’ve been talking to talk
He's slowing down and betting less on turn than he bet on the flop. Looks kinda weak to me. Call and eval river, your hand is way too strong to fold and too weak to raise/gii given the amount of $$$ in your stack.
Sure. But even though the information isn't particularly reliable, it can still be enough to influence Hero's decision.
Hero is generally supposed to at least call the turn even with no information. But hearing that makes shove more attractive.
Yea true, the persons who said it did look to be honest as well so that was influencing my action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium
He's slowing down and betting less on turn than he bet on the flop. Looks kinda weak to me. Call and eval river, your hand is way too strong to fold and too weak to raise/gii given the amount of $$$ in your stack.
Yea the weak bet kinda confused me, because if you have a legit hand you’d wanna bet more, unless he just lost total of the pot or he was just really on a draw…but once calling the flop and turn was brick I think folding shoulda been the last option
The number one question you should ask yourself on the flop is, how big of a pot do I want to play? If all the money goes in, how likely is it that I have the best hand? Consider that you are facing 4 other people, and KJ and 22 are real possibilities. Consider that when you face a raise on the flop, you likely have to call off and you are likely going to have to get all the money in.
On the flop, multiway, I prefer to go 1/4 pot or check. Checking gives you the opportunity to bet turn and river for value, call turn and river, call turn and bet river facing a check, etc. And people are more likely to stab turn with weaker hands. This allows you to make the pot the size you want it to be, where you are still beating most of the hands you are up against.
As played:
With no reads saying he doesn't have a draw here, I would shove the turn. You called a 44% raise on flop with TPGK with only 76% pot behind going into the turn, now villain downbets turn for less than 1/3 pot, and you're only going to have 30% pot left if you call. He is priced in to call off with an 8 out straight draw, let alone flush draw. There are loads of flush draws he could have. He could be value betting the same hand, maybe once in a blue moon a weaker K.
If you shove here, you only have to win 30.2% of the time to make this profitable, assuming he always calls off. If he ever bluffs this spot, it is highly likely that you are going to be good at least that often.
Shove and reload if you're beat. That will happen a lot in poker.
... Before this hand, people were talking about V being aggressive/not folding his flush draws. ...
Question about this part. When taking other players' talk into account, how much do we need to consider our thoughts of those players' styles? Since we just sat down, we don't have any reads other than the generic stereotypes based on their appearance (much like noting that V is a young Asian with a hoodie, so we expect him to be aggressive).
IOW, if these people seemed to be OMCs, we might discount their talk about being aggressive ("Wow, he raised with tens preflop, what a maniac!") some, right? (OMCs as an example, could be something else ofc).
Question about this part. When taking other players' talk into account, how much do we need to consider our thoughts of those players' styles? Since we just sat down, we don't have any reads other than the generic stereotypes based on their appearance (much like noting that V is a young Asian with a hoodie, so we expect him to be aggressive).
IOW, if these people seemed to be OMCs, we might discount their talk about being aggressive ("Wow, he raised with tens preflop, what a maniac!") some, right? (OMCs as an example, could be something else ofc).
A MAWG and older white guy with $1000+ stack were the ones discussing, I was more listening to the mawg though
