Villain (SB): 60s white guy, just sat and berated me for "chasing away the fish" when I called clock on clown who bet $150 into a $300 pot and tanked facing a shove for less than $50 more, so he himself is experienced but not necessarily good at poker ($500)
Hero (BB): late 20s Asian guy, no image (covers)

Three limpers to hero including villain in the SB. Hero checks Q4 in the BB.

Flop: QJ9 ($11)

Villain checks. Hero bets $8. Only villain calls.

Turn: 7 ($26)

Villain checks. Hero bets $18. Villain raises to $40. Hero ???

Nothing got there except Q7/J7/97. J7 probably folds. 97 almost certainly folds. I think the strongest hand he can have here asides from those is KQ. I think anything stronger would've raised flop. The raise sizing also doesn't look strong. I have showdown value but I'm probably beat. On the other hand, since I'm uncapped, I can bluff. It's way easier for me to have a straight. I don't usually 3 bet bluff but would this be a good spot? He's gonna have a very tough time calling most of his range since he is OOP and there's still a river.

I would've checked flop. If I had led I would check turn. As played I would fold.

This is a very bad spot to bluff, you will become super unbalanced by using that combo to bluff (random). Turn is a easy fold, and I think that checking the flop is not such a bad play here, if we bet the flop we should bet small since draws won't fold to large bets and we want him to keep calling with smaller pairs etc.


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The question is just how bad he is. He's offering you nearly 4:1 to call. If he's got no idea about the odds of hitting a FD, then maybe he's got TP. If he does, then the only reason to bet small is because he's bluffing (badly), has a big hand he's not going to fold to a re-raise, or is on a FD himself and hoping to set a price. Since even most fish know that they are 4:1 to hit a FD, I doubt a player that knows to call time would make this mistake.

There's no sense in sizing a raise on the basis of a bluff. It is folding to any price. If villain has a big hand, he isn't folding at any price. You don't want to bet anything. If it is a FD, you want to deny odds to call. The pot is at $84. You'll need to raise to about $125 to offer him 2:1.

As such, he'll have to be bluffing or have a FD over 50% of the time. I just don't think a 1/3 player is raising that frequently with a FD or bluffing. Time to fold it.

For the last 800ish hours Ive been working hard on getting better at bluffing. I'm starting to get pretty good at it. IMO, this is a terrible spot to try it. Fold and fold quickly.

This is a dripping wet board after having been limped around PF. How could you think of doing anything other than folding with your TPWK?

Donkleading this is pretty bad into 3 other opponents. You have a crappy top pair no kicker, OOP to the field with a hand that is gonna be capped as a one pair hand on most runouts. Against any reasonable continuerange our equity sucks and navigating is also gonna be difficult because ranges are not well defined due to the multiway limp and us being OOP from the blinds.

Thinking about 3 bet bluffing this on the turn because you created a stupid spot for yourself by donking this flop in the first place is fancy play syndrome at its finest.

Hero should fold to V's raise. V could have hit two pairs OTT as well as set 7 and T8s/o straight.

Turn does bring possible pair+Spade flush, 8h6h straight flush draw and 86o straight draw as well though i don't think V would be raising TURN with those.

Care to elaborate?

It's not a donk lead pot is limped. Everyone should have a weak range preflop. Plenty of Jx, pair plus draw or just draws that can continue. I expect to have the best hand most of the time and in limped pots vs fish I don't need to balance or protect my checking range. It's thin of course but I think I can get two streets of value vs most villains. And as played since I have position better to bet on flop and turn where I can get called by many worse hands (draws and pair + draws) then check back river. Assuming he cooperates of course which he doesn't in this case unfortunately.

Only likely two pair is Q7s. T8 was already a straight on the flop.



My point is guys isn't that villain is likely bluffing. He likely has a weak made hand he's raising to find out where he's at. In fact I don't think he's ever bluffing. Which is why I don't think my hand is good.

I would check otf

I would check ott if i bet flop

Fold to the raise, 3b is pretty spewy and calling id imagine is going to lose money

Fancy play syndrome/ entitlement tilt/ trying desperately to win every pot by hero. All reasons you are stuck at 1/3. Snap fold and take a 15 minute walk around the casino reminding yourself why you should never 3 bet bluff turn raises at low stakes.

k buddy

Got your point bro. V might be, might not, question is how often

I've only ever called clock once (it was a provoked and requested call and 100% warranted, a long story that I won't bother to get into here). Your number one goal should be making for a pleasant environment at the table for people to play in; calling a clock on someone (even if it is warranted) doesn't really do that.

I'm fine with preflop and flop and turn (might bet a smidge less on the turn but whatever no big deal), and now I fold. You bet the flop and the turn, and you got check/raised. Very few opponents do that with a hand that is worse than yours. If you're not comfortable folding to the check/raise then check the turn back to setup a bluff catcher, imo.

ETA: Also fine with checking the flop, but with only two behind us on a drawy board I don't think a bet is horrible.

GcluelessNLnoobG

What I don't get is why everyone is saying there's no hope in bluffing. The turn is mostly a brick, so unless he slowplayed a big hand on a super wet flop like that, he really doesn't have anything he can continue with vs that 3 bet.

What range are you guys putting him on? For me it's mostly pair + draw.

I can guess because it is a thread that villain did not flop the nuts. But in the fishy limpy online games, this is exactly how bad players play the nuts. Check call scary flop. Check-raise safe turn. Like clockwork.

I think can easily have both KT and T8 in his range, not to mention a lot of two pair combos. You have shown a lot of strength TBH betting into 4 players OTF and then continuing on the turn. And V still chose to CR turn. Perhaps he picked up BD spades with his made hand (although given you hold Q that is less likely).

I am just not sure you can get him to release by 3! here. And what do you do if he calls? Are you planning on emptying the clip on the river?

I guess I just think it is an extremely high variance play on a board where V could deffo have the current nuts or a hand that he is willing to go with. So I think you may be over-estimating your FE here.

+1, bluffing here is incredible spew

You could be drawing dead. I don't know why you have him capped at a one pair hand.

this is a little wepsy. I'd prefer to bluff w/ some other hands really. Having Qx and turning it into a bluff here with little chance to improve kind of opens you up a bit much to having way too many bluffs in this spot.

To be clear though, I dont think you need GTO balanced ranges in 1/3 pools, you still need to have your strategy lean towards exploitive but the perception of balance in the eyes of your opponents helps.

The understanding of perceived balance is similar to concept of range vs perceived range, but briefly: even casual reg's will pick up on over hyped frequencies. They may not always know how to respond but a play like this serves more to chisel away at your fold equity which I'd say is much more valuable over the course of the session/sessions than the paltry sum in the pot and having an AF of 100%

Also realizing your showdown equity w/ a Q no kicker still sends the message of "i can have anything at any moment" even if its not true while not exposing yourself to problems listed above.

Check flop. If you aren't going to check, bet bigger (10-15) and check turn. But flop is a better check because that street checking through all but guarantees you won't have to play a big pot w/ a hand that wants this pot to be small.

Given that we probably shouldn't have gone bet bet anyway, turn is a trivial fold. It doesn't matter what could've possibly got there, what matters is that he continued in the hand on this texture and is now raising. At this level, people play KT/T8/99/QT like this all of the time.

And for sure play hands like this less strongly next time. TPNK performs best as a 2 street hand, or letting someone bluff at you.

Are you capping his range because Hero would never play a hand strong enough to call a 3! here like this or are you capping it because you're confident V would never play his strong hands this way? I've gotten myself in trouble thinking the former when I should have been thinking the latter. Some players will pot control flops on wet boards and then overprotect the turn... just saying.

Yes actually this makes the most sense. Thank you for that insight.

And also yes I agree that flop could be checked, but I felt that on such a wet flop I can get called by draws/many worse hands. No need to protect my checking range anyways at 1/3.

Flop bet has to be better than checking. Villain isn't bluffing but you already know that. If you think you can push this old guy off 2p go for it but it can't possibly be +ev in the long run.