Okay guys.. RESULTS:

Hero just called river and...

V proudly announced "KINGS"

Lol, awesome results, didn't see that one coming.

I wonder if we actually lose him if we raise along the way? If so, perhaps didn't really lose any value here even though I'm sure we feel foolish.

GsometimesIforgethowbadmyopponentsareG

So much lost value...

Wow, is this really true? That's amazing. Is that because it's rare that you're playing that deep with other people also that deep, or is it because people just aren't getting it in when they are that deep?

We must play very different games. I won a $2100 head's up pot in my 1/2 game two weeks ago (holding A2 on a 345hh board v. a set of 3s). I've shoved big draws for $600-700 effective both last night and the week before (though I got folds both times from TP2K and an overpair). A couple weeks ago I got $600 stacks in against a V when I was holding bottom straight too (4 way pot as well so big dry side pot). I got $500 and $750 stacks in pre when they were holding QQ and AQ respectively and I had AA. Got 1100 stacks in when I had the nuts on the river (he misread his hand and also though he had the nuts in fairness). I made a terrible, terrible all in bluff $1000 deep playing 2/5 in a different game.

As for this hand, I can't quite tell if the question here is whether to gii or how to best gii. I'd be thinking about the latter rather than the former. In position I probably call the turn bet and jam over the river bet.

Just read results. The lesson here as in most poker games I play is that people are really, really bad at playing deep stack. I don't think I'm great at it, but most other people are worse . Your V obviously should have 3-bet pre. When he doesn't he should just be calling down here to maximize value on a dry board from worse overpairs. He's turning his hand into a bluff here for no good reason, especially when the J hits which (I) can give you top set and (ii) should cause you to slow down with TT-77.

This. We can keep our own range wide here by flatting ott. Especially since its tough to accurately range villain down to sets+. In fact, Id guess that villain has some random spaz hand (as in a hand worse than a set) like 20% of the time! Which makes flatting far better. Im often surprised at how often some villains surprise me with unorthodox plays.

What's your game's max BI? Mine game is only 100bbs, and often people will buy in for less.

My average session length is 8 hours, so more than enough times for some stacks to build up, but yeah, overall just haven't had that many situations where me and the one or two other deepstacks at the table have had hands where we're looking towards playing for huge stacks.

Pretty sure the most I've ever gotten in with a hand was $700 (233bbs), all preflop, in an AA vs AA situation.

It's also not something I see in general either, so it's not like just due to my play in these spots.

GcluelessdeepstacknoobG

just calling river =

My game is an underground game, so no max, though people usually buy in for 200 or 300. Sometimes more though, and I'll usually top up to keep my stack within spitting distance of any known fish that is sitting on a deep stack. There are several people in the game that I'd happily buy in to cover up to $1,000 because I feel like I'm losing value by not playing as deep as possible with them.

Not getting it in here is pretty terrible. Not close imo, even if he flips over the nuts. I would go as far as shoving 33 otr after flatting turn.

Yeah, so totally different game.

Which is why this spot is so game type dependent, imo. In your type of game, huge value is lost not playing for stacks here, as this type of thing probably happens every other orbit or so. In my game type, this situation is unicorn stuff, and so hand ranges are usually very nutted when no special people are involved. Not sure what type of game OP plays in, but in the end it certainly looks like he was up against a special player.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Agreed with this. In the games I play my only goal here is to gii. If V shows up with 54 or JJ, I'd view it as a cooler.

Yeah, is he really calling a river shove? I don't think so. He probably might get MUBSY if we CIB OTT. I just don't know.

OTR we have like $400 back right? He's already put in half of his stack, so I think he's calling anything other than air if we shove. Agreed if you raise turn he may check to you on the river.

Villains that play KK this way are the same villains that are never folding KK (and obviously never ever ever folding 2p/sets) to our river jam.

V showing up with JJ would be intersting

If he's not calling a click it back OTT, he's not putting more money in OTR, so your net gain from not raising the turn is 0.

Oops, I misread and thought we had 66 rather than JJ. That just makes this an even more slam dunk gii spot. Presumably even a bad reg isn't playing all 16 combos of 54 in a raised pot. There are nine combos of flopped sets that would all pay us off on the river. Hard to imagine he's got more than 9 combos of 54 here so we have a clear value bet. That's before taking into account weird two pair, overplayed one pair hands, and a very oddly played 88. The only reason not to shove river is if you think he can have all 16 combos of 54, but if that's the case you have to give him some 32 and other two pair hands.

This is a shove, no matter the game / player. It would be so horribly bad to not get it in here otr as played. Ya, we probably lose like 1/3 times our bet gets called, but that's great. Ill admit that I am not *sure* about very many things wrt poker, but this I am sure about.

Yeah, I just re-thought about that and agree that if he decided to "trap" me with his KK, he's never folding it. Left $450 in fat value OTR. But I'm the same guy who'd crib about being stupid to shove the river when he turned over 54s.

?

Let's assume in this case he's not calling a click back on the turn. Well, he just put money in the river (by donking it himself).

GweactuallygainedmoneybycallingtheturninthiscaseG

Would be really interesting for everyone in this thread to keep track of how often they see 300bb+ stacks go in in the 1/3 NL game they play. And then on top of that to see how often the aggressor is doing it without the nuts.

As I say, pretty game dependent. I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen 300bb stacks go in where one of the players wasn't a maniac. Like, seriously, I think I've seen it twice in the last year+, although in one case it was friend-on-friend HU after the flop and I'm actually convinced it was for show/advertising.

GyouguysplayindifferentgamesthanIdo,imoG

No it wasn't making more money. You're assuming he wouldn't call a 3! With absolutely zero proof of such.

How many times do you see people c/r turns with medium strength hands that by continue to a raise, specifically when they c/r to a large real $ amount. This isn't like c/r from 25 to 50. $200 is a real number to most of the player pool. It's an electric bill or a cable bill or etc

Most do it with draws or strong made hands.

The draws either hit or brick out OTR and put no more money in when they brick.

The strong made hands will continue OTR.

V thinks he has the latter, specifically based on the emphatic way he proclaimed to have KK, because "zomg, izzzz got da overpairzzz, immaa trappy trappy"

I'm sure this just has to do with your game not playing deep often enough. Like I'm assuming at the very least you've seen set over set where people get stacks in, they just didn't have the 300bb each behind to get in (but they would have if they did).

On the other hand, I saw 240bb stacks go in yesterday and TPMK take it down.

I'm simply responding to your statement of "if he's not calling a click back on the turn, then he's not putting in any more money on the river", which I think is clearly not true. People fold to raises all the time, and yet will continue to donk if not raised. Heck, the "standard" line for almost every thread in this forum is "bet/fold".

GoramImissingyourpoint?G