LOL at this thread.

400bb deep, from the SB against 3 other players. V's line is completely correct. V has 22 99.329003% of the time.

The biggest mistake here is H betting OTR.

actually im not even sure this is a call in GTO cuz your blocking the flush draws on the turn and the river raise is so big... you would have to ask pokersnowie

your def calling with some AK but possibly not AKss

A talented aggressive player is way wider than 22 here.

Ifi’m V here, I would KKisgood part of H’s range.

I hate the preflop result (which is totally expected at my table). I'm unclear on stacks, but if they are all super big we could just raise way smaller (maybe even a minraise simply to juice when we hit and give us the option of reraising if someone plays back). I'd mostly just limp, but that's me.

I'm cool with flop/turn. ETA: Although I think we also have to sometimes at least consider exiting the turn as villains line is *so* strong and our hand is pretty face up (what, we raised preflop UTG and was the first to call a donk with the world behind us without an Ace?).

By the river our hand may as well be face up on the table (can it really be anything else, apart from perhaps AQ?). Against a solid player, I just don't see how he can be dumb enough to call with anything worse, except perhaps crying calling a very small bet of like $75 with AQ, but even that is pretty meh (what, we have AJ here?). So against someone with half a brain I'd likely check it back. As played, I fold.

ETA: If villain flopped a boat, I love his flop/turn play and think anything else is kinda meh. I would probably lean to betting the river myself, but other than that I don't see what is so lol about his line.

ETA#2: Also, this is a 5way pot. Villain isn't getting out of line and neither is hero with the world still to react behind them, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Wow sounds like a fun game

Yes, but V is described as "talented" and good hand reader, etc. I of course have no idea how Hero has played up until this point, but if Hero has this read on V, then V must have a good read on Hero. Do you really think this is the best line against a thinking TAG? Of course other V's in hand, but Hero has all of the strongest A's.

I think you're right and I think I can actually fold all my AK/AQ without the A and still retain GTO balance. AK is the nut low combo. I unblock A2 and block flush draws.

You guys are really advocating b/c OTR here?

I might be able to see b/f... but b/c? You cannot be serious?!

yeah. nasty spot. sigh fold? problem is that V could be also value betting AK and AQ like this.

getting like 2.8:1 really want to call, but can't come up with a hand that V would C/Shove the river with that we can beat.

fold. Save 680 and feel good about it.

I think the best time (and possibly the only time) to show a big laydown is when you are doing it against a super nit's raise/bet, but if it was against anyone else's raise/bet at the table you would've snap called. Then they think you make crazy laydowns and you can get them to bluff more in spots where you would be calling them.

Come on guys, overthinking this. GTO would never advocate V's line with any part of his range. Thus, why would you care about playing GTO in this spot when V is not? It's not +EV. Need to put on our exploitative hats here.

This x100

"Completely correct", yet V gets absolute gin flop with Hero at the tip top of his range with blanky turn/river and only extracts 40% of Hero's stack...I can't imagine this is the best line V can take.

Yep.

Position. V's position sucks, and it makes it tough to extract.

The hand is 5 ways, V can be nearly 100% certain someone has an A (most likely Hero). But waiting for someone else to bet increases the risk that the flop will check through.

I agree his turn sizing is poor, but lol, he also went for a x/r OTR, which I would not have done.

Not being there, I can be certain, but I think I would have gone $75-100, $225, shove.

^Yes your right, Hero is most likely holder of A, which he is betting his strongest A's in a 5 way like 99.329003%

As played I think turn sizing must be larger to set up river shove. Checking river could be disastrous against a thinking player, which lets assume Hero is.

How exactly do you think he extracts more, other than by sizing up his bets and betting the river himself?

When this deep it can be very hard to get entire stacks in.

You answered your own question within your question.

+1 to this, last thing you want to do is be telling villains when you're folding almost literally the top of your range.

So I played around with this hand in Pio. Obviously, as played Pio analysis is useless since V's line is not optimal in the GTO sense, but just trying to see what a optimal V line looks like here. Also, of course the flop is 5 handed, which changes initial actions, but I think valuable conclusions can be drawn.

Just analyzing V's 22 and Hero's AKs, I took away two conclusions:

1) V's sizing on flop is fine, but turn must absolutely be PSB or higher. This allows V to push all in at river, which Hero must call at 64%, vs. 57% if V sizes as played sizing on turn and 43% vs. V's as played turn/river moves. In other words, pot+ on turn/river is +EV vs. other turn/river routes post as played flop actions.

2) Again, yes its 5 handed, but if V checks and Hero bets and action folds back to V (which would have happened), Pio has V raising 22 100% of time. Hero calls most of the time, raises other times. Calling would likely happen more often in practice, so lets just assume that. On turn, similar dynamic. Lets assume call again. River, V pots and Hero calls 77% of time.


Must always take GTO analysis of LLS with a grain of salt, but I believe there are always nuggets of good info to be learned using it.

This is live 1/3 - people just aren't blasting away 400bb as a bluff. I rarely even see it at 2/5 games.

This is a fold - and the very few times you get bluffed - oh well it's rare. Most of the time villain has a boat always.

I don't think I would bet this river as played. You could raise flop or turn but as played just check river. I would bet this river if I wasn't so deep or I didn't telegraph my hand pre by opening to $25 utg - also villains line is a joke.

You say villain is talented - why? Does he play higher stakes? Does he just run good against you? From the way he played this hand, he doesn't look talented.

GTO still exists when one player has deviated. You are probably thinking of the Nash Equilibrium, which occurs when neither player can gain any advantage through a change in strategy.

Yes it does, but from Hero's perspective playing GTO is not +EV since V's line is not GTO. Also, I was analyzing what the correct line for V should have been.

Analyzing theoretically optimal lines in 5 way pots is one of the bigger time wasters I’ve seen posted here.

The main point was to see how to play optimally on turn/river given they were HU. Also, OTF, since we know rest of field folds, I choose to look at V leading out and V checking rather than whats the optimal flop play for V. In other words, optimal line for V post selecting both starting points.

Instead of just quickly looking at "5 way pot" + "solver analysis" = stupid, dig a little deeper next time.

You should not be digging deeper in 5 way pots as the solution is to fast play value and fold air. That is the point. Sizing is whatever. You don’t need a solver to tell you how to size your bets to stack someone in a 5 way opened pot.

The few mw “solvers” that currently exist play extremely passively with each additional vpip’ing villain, because value ranges strengthen and balance becomes a misleading term. (What is balance when the worst part of a collective range is top pair)

What you are doing is force tying to a solution by ignoring the very beginning of the tree. “Well what if there weren’t 5 players” is a pretty big change. It’s actually an entirely different hand. From a solver perspective, 22 is also a fold here from the sb. Again, another force tie you are doing which is creating an entirely different hand.

With 5 players and a flopped boat on an AAx flop, there are no nuggets of wisdom to be had. Donk or x/r and try not to let anyone see your boner is the appropriate “solution”.