Hero played mostly TAG, won a big pot with top two when two flush draws got it in has been mostly quiet due to being card dead, has gotten more active recently. Currently sitting at around $1100.

Villain is loose fish, has been running hot, playing relatively aggro, he used to play 2/5 but has dropped down. Has been seen raising flush draw + pair and bluffing, though not for a large amount. He's sitting somewhere close to $2000.

There was a hand that happened between us at beginning of session. I raised AcQd for 18 over two limpers, got two callers including villain, who complained I was making it too expensive, flop was QcTcTh, I bet 40 into 57, only villain called. Turn was 7s, I bet 85 into 137, Villain went all in for another 110. I made the (questionable? ) call, he showed 7hTh, I did not improve.

On to the hand.

Hero is in MP2 with J9. Loose fish limps UTG+1 with Villain just posting his BB returning from break, hero raises to 21.

Villain calls on the button, loose fish on the BB calls as well.

Flop (85) KQT.

Hero bets 60, villain raises to 180, BB tanks for a bit, seems on the verge of shoving $250, eventually folds, UTG+1 folds, hero calls.

Turn ($445) 8

Hero checks, Vilain bets $250,

Hero?

I was actually in the exact same spot vs a clueless villain; 3-bet flop, blasted turn and jammed river vs KQ for 300bb.

If you perceive this guy to be anywhere near competent I think call down is good here.

I almost never play this deep / suck at deepstack, but...

I probably lean to just folding preflop. With all these loose guys in the hand all we're doing is bloating the pot multiway and ending up OOP. The SPR against the smaller stacks will be horrendous and handcuffing. And even against the deeper stacks, while playable, they still put stacks in play / bloat the pot OOP.

Here's a perfect example of putting stacks in play thanks to preflop. We've literally flopped the second nuts... and yet it looks like we're not comfortable playing for stacks. If we're not comfortable playing for stacks, I don't think we should be raising preflop. Otherwise, I would lean to reraising the flop (ditto for turn) on this super drawy board that he could have easily smashed with worse and getting stacks in. If we're behind the dominating AJ in an SPR 12 pot, that's due to preflop.

GcluelessdeepstacknoobG

I'd just fold pre. I like 3 betting on the flop, especially out of position to ~ $500. AP, crai ott looks good.

del

Playing with flopzilla right now.

I don't remember which card was non-club, so I assumed it was the Qd. If I assign villain a range of KQ, KTs, QTs, TT, AJ, J9s, AcQc, QcJc, Qc9c, I am ahead 55-45.

Of course, if you take a few hands out, it's can be a very narrow 50-50 spot. If you just give villain AJ, KQ and TT and J9, it's 44-44.

Obviously, if you take KQ and TT out and give him no flush draws, I am drawing virtually dead.

Funny thing is I had a similar spot 100BB deep last week in which I reraised KJT flop with KQ and villain went all in with KT for 150 BB or so.

Also, now I remember that villain got it in a flop of AQT with AT vs the BB which hit a set of QQ just two orbits ago.

None of those spots were 350BB deep and I don't have enough prior history to have solid assumptions about how villain play this spot.

I’m raising flop and getting it in on any safe turn card. You got the 2nd nuts, if you’re folding this then there’s no reason to play J9s (which you should be playing, no way this is a fold here preflop)

kinda perplexing. that flop smashes your range as the preflop raiser. but given the wet flop, it looks like V has some real draw equity that he is trying to maximize.


he has JT or a combo flush draw way more than he AJ. check jam the turn.

Shove turn

Seems like a mandatory raise.

So, just to make clear, except for GG, no one is making the argument that since we are multiway and 350bb deep, villains ranges should be narrower than if we were shallower and HU?

I am surprised.

Given the T7 hand villain probably has a handful of Jx combo's, on top of all the 2 pair and KJ/QJ/JT.

And yeah sure, villain should theoretically be raising a really tight range in this spot, but does he understand that concept? Based on your own description i'd say probably not.

Vs described villain this is a fist pump gii

You can narrow villains range, but you can’t put them on *exactly* one hand. That’s not a range anymore. If you’re folding in this position with 2nd nut straight, with PLENTY of potential bluffing opportunities for villain, you’re going to lose money. You can’t be afraid to lose big pots. If the only hand you play this deep is the mortal nuts, villains can just stuff their stack in your face every hand and you might as well leave the table once you double up.

Now, are there some villains you can make an exploitative fold against? I guess. Personally, I am never ever ever folding here, for any amount of money I have on the table. Maybe if you were both on some super sick run and had 1000+ bbs in front and decided it was a good idea to keep playing you could consider a fold. But there’s no way you can be balanced here and fold. You will get run over while playing deep if you do.

Edit: you also block the only hand that is ahead of you. Slam dunk raise/GII, no question about it.

2nd edit: you mentioned he’s a fish. If he’s bad at poker, depending on how bad he is, stack sizes can he irrelevant. “I haz top two I’m going all in” kinda mindset can take over. Not everyone will look at the game the same way.

3rd edit: if there is some life situation/tilt risk going on that will be aggravated by losing a $2000+ pot, maybe make the fold. You’ll lose money, it’s not the right play, and it is certainly a reason to leave the table if you’re in that type of mindset, but if it keeps you from tilting off and degening in the pits it is the right play. Scared money is not money to be used in poker. I guess I can picture a situation where there’s a mega fish donating $200 at a time to everyone at the table and you’re playing hands only against him and no one else, you can fold against less fishier villain to minimize variance, but that doesn’t sound like the situation here.

4th edit: I apologize for the long post, I keep thinking of new things. The range you assigned to villain is all the value hands he could be holding. He can take this line with any number of Axcc bluffs. Villains should be betting very polarized here, which should theoretically include a good amount of bluffs. Axcc makes the most sense and if you include those your equity increases. Jx is also a possibility.

Many people's raising range on this flop is only AJ/J9 since V is unlikely to have KK/QQ. That said, what do YOU think V's range is that he plays this way? If he also plays KQ/KT/QT/TT/combo draws this way, you're just going to have to jam it in there and suck it up when he shows up with AJ, then kick yourself for setting up a big pot with J9. Can't see myself doing anything other than shoving turn here against described V. You may even be getting freerolled, but sometimes it happens. You're way too high in your range on a super wet board with a lot of potential value/draw hands out there. Jam it and hope you don't get snapped.

A big aspect of good exploitative poker is having accurate assumptions about how the player pool plays. A major mistake people make - myself included- is that they see a person playing laggy in early streets and believing that the same person will also play laggy in later streets. In my experience, people do all sorts of dumb **** in early streets but tend to get pretty snug when most of the money go in.

As I said this is a spot I have little experience with, so I am not sure what assumptions are correct. I tend to believe that in a multiway pot, the ranges we are up against tends to be stronger because it's the continuing range out of a combined 4 people ranges. Put it another way. If this is a limped pot that has gone 9 way against the same villain, should we be comfortable getting it in 300 BB deep with the same hand? I think the answer is no. So, somewhere there's a cut off point in which there's enough players in to command you to play really tight.

Moreover, I think that theoretically, the deeper we get, the narrower our stack of range should be. if you see preflop for example, there's a point after which it's not worth raising anything else other than AA, in which case you should stop having a raising range (I don't mean 2bet range, I mean 5bet and 6bet etc). Again, preflop, 350BB would you get it in with anything else other than AA? Shouldn't the same principle apply postflop?

FWIW, in game, given what I knew about villain and looking at his turn bet which didn't seem the bet of someone protecting against a flush or a paired board, I thought I was good enough times to get it in and so I did.

It's comforting people are saying I ought to have jammed, I just want to make sure I made the right decision.

If you're contemplating folding here, you need to rack up. It's ok if you're not comfortable with deep stack (yet) but you need to admit that and rack up or else you're going to lose money by overfolding with MUBS.

If the table is really good/juicy so we don't want to leave, we could try to get a straddle going. Then we're much less deep. We should also be seat changing to the left of the fish with the deep stack so we can pot control when we need to and get his money.

Yes, ranges both postflop and preflop get tighter the more money goes in. This is obvious. But that doesn't mean V only has the nuts when he GII for 350BB.

FWIW, there are people who I have *correctly* stacked off against for 350BB w/ JJ (let alone QQ/KK). And there are others who I won't even stack off with KK for 100BB. It's all about knowing your V and their ranges.

Nothing about the provided description makes me think V would only do this with the nuts. It's a slam dunk GII, he has way too many 2-pair/pair+FD+SD for me to ever consider folding. x/jam turn.

grunch.

I think l/call pre at these stack depths OOP to a potential PFR is perfectly fine. SPR will be extremely high and your hand flops well. Can easy extract max value with c/r flop, bet turn & shove river line if you hit.

AP raise flop small, 1/2 pot turn, shove river line on non club/board pair/4-straight run outs seems fine. I don't want him to hero fold his two pairs and we don't mind his draws calling.

AP CRAI turn looks good.

I think in 2020 this is AJ like 98% of the time assuming villain isn't ******ed.

I agree. Especially at this stake level.

How do you play this? Do you bet flop? Do you fold turn? At what point do stack sizes become shallow enough to get it in? How about the numbers of players?

How should we play our range if we are on villain's shoes? Do we only raise flop with AJ? Or should we call with everything?

I like a call on turn to re-evaluate river.

Not sure based on the example/description that he really is a fish.


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If your player description is correct, as played this is a turn shove.

If you are trying to tell us that his style might change in later streets or when deep and the money is going in, then we might need to think about it, but I'm never folding with the information I have and this board.

"2-5 player who has moved down to 1-3"
"Loose fish playing aggro"
"Semi bluffing and bluffing"
"calls 6x raise pre with 10h7h"

Your talk about theory shows your on the right track, but don't level yourself into thinking your beat based off your theory of the whole player pool. If your playing exploitative poker you need to deviate away from that based on the specific V in the hand. This is a perfect example. We doubled him up to around $500 with TPTK earlier in the session and it sounds like hes ran it up to around 2k. In my games these guys are the ones whose ranges open up and they punt it off because "its just the profit, I'm still up" (If your description is correct)

You don't need to be narrowing his range down to the stone cold nuts here, For all we know fishman probably thinks all his 2 pairs are good and he's charging your draws, especially after you don't re-raise the flop.

Your turn shove was correct, I think the real question here might be, was it ok to deviate away from your basic theory based on your read? I think it was, as long as your read was solid.

overlimp > raise > fold imo

Never folding turn but also probably not jamming. Our hand has only chop equity against AJ. Sets and FDs can still improve.