V1 CO 500 - Fish to the definition. Raises/calls ATC from all positions. Haven’t seen him fold to a 3!

V2 Btn 1500+ - Usually plays fairly loose, seems to have tightened up with the bigger stack.

H BB 500

Straddle is on $10 from the BTN.

5 callers to H, checks option with KJhh. No need to 3! As everyone has position on me and they’re not folding.

Flop $60
6h 7h Jc

H Check, folds to V1 25, V2 call, Hero calls.

Turn $135
Kd

H check, V1 75, V2 call, H raises to 225. Both Vs call quickly.

River $910
10s

Hero?

V1 range is flush/straight draw, any pair on board, no sets as they would’ve jammed on the turn.

V2 range is the same, but more 2p+ heavy.

89 and AQhh are the only hands that really got there, although I don’t know that AQhh is ever limps by these two.

Lead jam, or check call/raise?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You've got 240 back, pot is 910. Easy ship, you're never folding anyway and they might not bet their 1p or small 2p but they could find calls.

Did you consider raising flop? Sounds like you could get value from a lot of V1's range as well as maybe getting HU against a weak V. Even if V2 comes along as well, you're never crushed and have good equity. If you raise to 125, pot will 335 or 435 (depending on callers) and I would just ship every turn that's not an A.

I'm cool with just seeing a flop here too.

I'm fine check/calling the flop. Betting and getting raised sucks as at that point it is likely we don't have nearly as much equity as we think we do. With TPGK we have showdown value, and we don't really fear too many draws, so it's not even a disaster if the flop checks thru, plus we don't have the nut draw. I'm cool with letting someone else drive the bus and underrepping our hand.

What do we make of V1 still firing into 2 opponents when an overcard hits on the turn? I know this guy is fishy, but most players would slow down here with just TP. Is he barrelling a draw multiway? I know he's fishy, but does he really have K7/K6/J7/J6 in his range? The only "good" hand we're ahead of that seems reasonable is 76. I know there was a straddle, but is our plan to go broke with top two here threeways? You'd think the other guy would raise this drawy board against this guy if he had a set, so not as worried about him. I find two pair (even top two pair) tough to play, and it's possible I undervalue it, but I'm not sure. I'd hate to get blown off my draw (i.e. how much do we puke in our mouths if he stuffs?). I think I just passively check/call again and re-evaluate on the river, but I might be missing value against these guys. In the end we built a massive pot and I'm just not convinced against a lot of opponents that two pair is the hand to do that with, although it may be against these guys.

FWIW, I would have ranged villains opposite (i.e. my guess is V1 is stronger than V2 given this line).

By the river, we've left ourselves with $240 in a $910 pot. We're never folding if someone bets, and it's unlikely a busted draw is going to attempt to bluff with us having relatively so little left. We'd hate for a worse hand that would call a bet to check behind. So river is a trivial shove at this point. I'm just not totally convinced we should be in this spot, but I'll admit two pair is a really in-between hand for me that I typically end up leaning towards playing for smaller pots that larger ones (especially multiway limped).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Would we be bluffing when we ship the turn? Or would it be for value?

I'm not sure how your game plays, but $500 stacks rarely go in at my table, so I would hardly ever expect to be called by worse, so this would be a bluff. Our hand (TPGK) is too good to bluff, imo. Then again, if this one guy truly is a massive fish and will call with worse / draw, then more for value, I suppose.

I would like this line better if we had a small pair + draw where we don't have much showdown value so it would be a semi-bluff. But I'd also like that line better in a raised pot (where the pot is more worth taking down) rather than a limped one (where the stacks behind are more worth playing for than the pot itself).

GcluelessNLnoobG

X/call flop is good
X jam turn, ~minraise is terrible

Assuming your read about villains being loose is on the mark - On the turn, pot is $360 (including your call) so you can easily raise more than $150, and then the river becomes even more trivial.

As played: OTR, bet it all - you're offering like 5:1 to anyone who wants to hero call with a lesser two pair or even Kx, and this dominates check/call: weaker hands usually won't bet, but stronger ones definitely will.

I'd like to hear more thoughts (for/against) about raising flop. It does seem like we're a little too deep for that, but SPR is ~8, ranges are undefined/weak, and equity against loose players should be pretty solid.

Vs. these guys, I check/raise the flop.

When the turn comes, I shove.

As played, shove. No other choice, really, except maybe check/call if they are betting everything.

BTW, I check/raise the flop because I want more money in the pot, I likely have the best hand, if I don't have the best hand, I have a ton of outs, and I don't want them to set a cheap price to hit their draw -- whatever it might be.

I'm not as concerned about them "hitting a draw for cheap" since we have the main draw; if they are behind, they have very few outs (especially since some of their "outs" completes our draw) with the lone exception being if they have the nut flush draw. If big money starts going in on early streets, it's us who should be concerned (and often have fewer outs than we think).

GimoG

Oh, GG. Top 2 and a flush draw on a board without a straight and you want to pot control. How silly can you be

As I say, I do have difficulty with in-between hands like two pair, and it's certainly possible I'm missing value here, especially against these guys. Against a decent percentage of my opponents playing more passively here is far better as typically they ain't leading the turn into 2 opponents when an overcard hits unless they have two pair+, and the only reasonable two pair+ we're ahead of is 76, and a lot of decent opponents could release bottom two pair to much action (also depending on our image), especially for relatively big $500 stacks. But admittedly, our villains here probably ain't those guys.

GcluelessNLnoobG

This is hardly an in-between hand on the flop or the turn. If one of them bet $25 on flop and/or called $25 w/ a set, they can have my money. It becomes more in-between on the river when one of the few draws that doesn't hit us might have hit them, but it's too late now. BTW, their "draws" was my last reason for wanting to build a pot by check/raising the flop.

Yeah if only you had shoved turn it would have been max value.