It was a laggy table with most of the action post-flop.

V1 UTG+2 ~$200 modestly good hand selection preflop, aggressive post, but folds way too easy.
V2 UTG+3 ~$450 calling station
V3 HJ ~$600 semipro, very solid and capable of bet/fold plays.
V4 CO $311 Mostly fit-or-fold, very wide preflop, overbets to protect hands when he should be building the pot. Played with him for over 20 years.
V5 BB is irrelevant.
Hero $750 TAG but has been playing some extra hands to not look too nitty.

Hero limps UTG with JsTs, V1 raises to $15, V2-V5 calls, Hero calls.

Pot $ 85(after drop)
Flop: 9d 8s 5h

Hero checks, V1 bets $15, V2 calls, v3 raises to $75 (which he would do with A9, TT, 98 and all sets - he would have raised pre with JJ+), V4 shoves for $296 and V5 folds.

Pot: $401, $296 to call.

Reads:
V1 is folding for sure.
V2 looks like he may want to call and based on his previous play, probably will.
V3 is the big issue. He hasn't played with V4 as long as I have, but I believe his read is at least as good as mine. So, I think he would only call with a set and fold one pair, two pair, or an overpair.
V4 has either top set (99), or much more likely 76, for the flopped straight.

So, if I call and V2 calls I'm getting a bit over 2:1, which isn't enough. The question is what will V3 do? If he calls, I'm getting the required 3:1, but if he shoves I'm committed and in bad shape. The thing is my call and V2's may bloat the pot enough to induce V3 to call, or even shove. I think he does know if I call, I'm committed.

Also of concern is what happens if Hero whiffs the turn and V2, or V3 shoves? Technically the odds won't be there, but it would be a pot around $1150-$1300, which is hard to fold with a live draw.

Last, I didn't even consider shoving.

On the other hand, I only have $15 in this pot.

These were my thoughts during the hand. Who calls and who folds?

Raise or fold pre

Fold as played. You've only got 25% equity vs a set. You think 2 villains might have sets. You think a villain might have flopped a straight (taking away one of your outs). Your two overs aren't good. So, you have to hope to hit one of your 7 outs on 1 street and hope the board doesn't pair on the other. You also have assume that your reads of villains are spot on and that no one else has JT.

...and you're calling $300 into a $400 pot?...and you're not closing the action guessing what future villain plays might look like?

/thread

Wrong. Not the way these games play postflop. While absolute position sucks, relative position is excellent. These games require postflop skills, I suggest you develop some.

I fold. Top set and you may hit and still lose. If someone has 76 you lost an out. No telling what V3 will do. I Wait for a spot where I have a better idea of what I am getting myself into.

I actually had the same situation pop up my last session with a flush draw with backdoor straight. I was pretty confident the way the hand played neither player had a flush draw. I was getting odds that weren’t set 100% but They did end up being what I tought with maybe a few dollars of positive EV. I tanked for 20 seconds and folded and the turn and river bricked out.

Id wait for a better spot if you have a large edge.

Seems like an easy fold to me.

I don't get the limp pre. I get that post-flop is where it's at, but by limp/calling you do let everyone know you don't have ~TT+/AK. Isn’t that giving away too much information when you're in the position to open and give away nothing?

I'm with the chorus that we should be raising here preflop. This hand is too good, plays too well and we want to be raising especially with a table where we aren't getting tons of action preflop. That alone will change the entire dynamics of the hand and give us many more options post flop.

As played I'm folding.


curious. what is your UTG open range JayKon?

Noob perspective:

You're barely committed to this pot, you probably have some missing outs (per description I think it's very likely V4 has 76) and might get out-drawn against a set or 2-pair anyway, and you astutely point out you could face an uncomfortable bet from V3 on the turn if you miss.

If it's me, I think I can find a better spot than this, but I'm going to hate watching this runout with my cards in the muck.

I think preflop limp/raise discussions are usually pretty pointless. If somebody wants to limp his full range from EP preflop with a decent amount of limp/ raises, they should do that. Raising AA and limp/calling JT is obviously not ideal, but that’s a different issue.

Sucks that we have to fold the flop, but if we don’t have the equity, we don’t have the equity.

Sure but it’s our opening move and often sets the stage for the rest of the hand as far as initiative and pot size. In spots like this it’s a trivial fold post flop as played but what if we had opened? We would instead have initiative with an uncapped range and be c-betting this board 100%. I think it’s a bit narrow minded to ignore how bad limping up front is in general. Of course there are limp raise strategies and Uber nit styles as employed by posters like GG with success. If we’re talking general TAG strategy, limping in EP is a bad strategy. We can’t gloss over that before proceeding to post flop analysis.

I would fold. As OP candidly admits, there are lots of "ifs" still to be resolved. V2 *probably* calls. V3 *may* shove. If you had last action, you'd know for certain and could make a fully informed decision...but you don't, so just fold. ALSO, I think you should demand a pot-odds premium, because of the very real chance you could hit and still lose full/part value (when the board pairs vs. set or you chop vs 9J or similar).

Finally, I'm on team "raise" PF. But also on team "it doesn't matter much." You know the usual arguments for raising. I'll add one more: I have a small set of hard and fast rules to reduce the number of decisions I need to make in real time. NEVER open-limp PF is a pretty easy standard bearer. Never donk on flop as the PF caller from BB, etc. Iron-clad rules save me the mental energy of "is this the 1 in 1,000 situation where I should make the nonstandard play?" Maybe I'll eliminate these rule when I'm expert, but that day isn't today.

I limp from EP in my games w/ JTs, but I don't have any pros at the table, and my opponents will limp behind w/ AK, AA, KK, etc. Plus, they will just flat those hands, too. So easy to play against them post.

However, with any good players behind me, I raise or fold pre.

As played, snap fold.

In order for this call to be very marginally +EV, both v2 and v3 have to have near 100% calling frequencies in this spot. I’m not trying to discredit your reads, but if you’re off by even a little bit, this can go from break even/slightly +EV to absolutely torching very fast.

The concept is interesting, but there are just too many variables that have to be perfect for us to show a slight profit. As played, this is a fold.

To beat a dead horse...
The old me: limp UTG with JTsu
New me: raise with JTsu and I for sure CB that beautiful nut draw flop and appreciating the backdoor FD.

Old me: AP I fold that flop quickly bc I'm not calling off my entire stack, knowing I'm behind, having to hit probably less than 8 live outs.
New me: AP doesn't exist, I just will not limp UTG. But AP, I fold quickly bc I make way more money betting than calling.

In today's mostly weak LLSNL games I don't see a need to "either raise or fold whenever you're entering the pot", which kind of trickled into live poker from online poker like over 15 years ago is still true if you're in a game full of competent players but in today's limp fest weak recreational games when we have multiway hands that might not be strong enough for us to raise early (and of course assuming we're one of the best post flop players at the table), I think it's fine to limp in with these types of hands if you're confident the flop is gonna be a multiway limped pot (or even a multiway raised pot if we limp/called small or med PP's or suted aces, etc). I wouldn't generally do it in a "laggy table" though, or any table where most flops get raised pre but in these types of weak games, even when we flop two pair with an ace otf, a weak player who limped AK/AQ are often willing to go broke with it post flop. I'm limping TJs wayyy before folding it.

As played I would fold otf.

The advice of, "if you can't raise, don't call" predates internet poker and the Moneymaker poker boom. Of course that advice has exceptions, but it is still generally good.

I agree that most tables are usually limp fests. Against the vast majority of 1/2 and somewhere closer to half of the 2/5 games I play, the tables are passive with rare 3!s. And that's exactly why you should bet vs limp. If you limp/call, you're basically forcing yourself to play fit or fold, or make a higher risk bluff than a normal CB bluff.

If I open UTG and get reraised, it's either a strong player (why battle with him when there is lower hanging fruit?) or strong hand from a weak player and I can decide if I want to play him or not. If the weak player is deep, I might try to bluff or out flop him.

If I open and only get limps behind, I retain initiative and get to force the callers to make difficult decisions vs me having to make difficult decisions. It really makes playing the game a lot easier. And of course, I'll get picked off from time to time, but that's the game.

I’m fine say limping with certain hands in later position where we have a good idea ofthe players behind us tendencies I just don’t think here is ever one of those cases due to the position.

The reality is that the vast majority of players would lose less money if they folded everything except for QQ+ from EP. There's also a good chance a lot of players would lose less money if they had a limp-only strategy from EP (again except for QQ+) instead of a raise-only strategy. Especially if the vast majority of those were limp/folds and they would fold every flop they didn't hit hard.

The standard charts don't account for the fact that by raising most players build a pot for better players to own them postflop.

Madlex, you are right. Bad players shouldn't open raise if they are still going to play fit or fold.

I think the people here are at least trying to become better players, which is something (my guess) 95+% of poker players are not trying to do. So many bad players and non poker players often ask me what the secret is to winning poker, as if there is a sentence that reveals all if only those in the know would share it.

The advice to bet or fold EP is both good advice and bad advice, but it isn't a perfect piece of stand alone wisdom. As with most things, It depends. It depends mostly on the audience, where they are in their poker journey.

I assume the people here are trying to get better rather than what I see in other poker forums where it is just a long series of bad beat stories.

This is a very important point and weighed into my decision.
With different game dynamics, I would agree. However, my standard PFR is $15, which V1 did and I was neither surprised by his raise, or by the number of players that called. That's just how the game had been going and I did give those clues in the beginning. In short, by limping I turned being OOP into being IP. Relative position is a thing and should be used sparingly, but used nonetheless.

Also, when I play a complete TAG, I don't get much action. by seeing a few extra flops here and there, most people don't notice how much I'm actually folding.

My default for EP is to open/raise AJs+, AQ+, TT+. This obviously changes according to table conditions and my current image.

That was my final conclusion. It took a little bit to get there, as there was a lot of noise and I hadn't expected it to go from 0, to 100 so quickly.

At first, I was undecided about this hand and decided to write it up in the word processor for self-analysis. However, after looking at it, I thought it might be interesting to post.

Anyway, I did fold, as did V1. V2 (the calling station) called and V3 tank/folded, making me think he would have called, if I did. Still, I believe that steezystolz is right, much better than 3:1 should be there to justify a call.

Cards came up, V2 had 98o and V4 did have 76o. The turn was a 2 and the river was a 7 ... oh well, the fold was still right.

folding.

there is no doubt that there are lots of people who would do better to fold every last hand. They would end the night ahead of lots of the folks we play with.

There was an example today where someone should have folded and it illustrates the extreme end of what I'm saying about under folding.

The victim raised preflop with QQ from the button, the BB and one limper called. The flop was A75o and the BB donked a PSB, the limper called, as did the QQ. The turn was a blank and it got checked to the QQ, who bet - and was called twice. The river was another blank and it was bet into to Mr. QQ, who shoved. Both called with an A.

Hardish fold on the flop, easy check on the turn and easy fold on the river.

You just don't understand. The button had QQ. Perfect position and near perfect starters. He "deserved" to win that hand!

/s

I'll bet he told everyone how unlucky he is.

Yup. And he doesn't win, because he doesn't fold enough. That is the secret to winning poker.