Just cuz I've encountered at least two posters recently who have a very different idea of what a good spot is than I do, I thought I'd simply post this to see where the forum is on this matter.

Very simple.

You're sitting at your run-of-the-mill live 1/3 NL table (I'll let you decide what that means).

You're 10 handed.

You've all got 100bbs.

You get AA UTG.

Because you don't employ my lol-limp-100%-of-what-you're-playing-in-EP method, you raise. You make it the table standard, which is 5bbs = $15.

But because you've made a deal with the poker gods, you now get the power to decide how many callers you get.

So, how many callers do you wish for, and why?

GthreadmayhaveabadcaseoftheCoronabytheendoftheday. ..G

I wish for everyone with position on me to fold and the SB and BB to call. That way we are in absolute position postflop with a ~6 SPR, and can get it in on favorable runouts fairly easy with a bet/bet/bet line

+1 Easy game, close thread.

Regarding qualifiers (like those by wazz), I mostly wouldn't get too carried away with those (i.e. "I want all the huge punting steaming whales to call and the really good pros to fold"). Basically just looking for a number that would be your fistpump-yes-that's-exactly-how-many-callers-I-wanted number.

FWIW: The reason I'm asking is that I *think* (unless I've misunderstood them) that both posters I've disagreed with would have their optimum fistpump number set at all 9 opponents calling.

GcluelessqualifiersnoobG

I want them all to call so there's $150 in the pot when we have $285 stacks so I can just pile it on on almost any flop, and shorter stacks just might do the job for us. With $150 in pot, they're priced into too many situations when they flop any piece and can't fold. Works for me.

On that note, if a random distribution of 9 other players' ATC hole cards are calling pre, then we should be in great shape because they've got a whole lot of trash in their range.

All of them.

/thread

My immediate thought was...all (assuming my mental game wellness is on point).

First, because math (and if my gut is wrong about the math and someone proves it...I’ll start doing math again myself).

Second, because a family pot of this size can do great things for the game going forward.

GG...I think you’re really asking another question. One that would have to do with, “how well do I FEEL about things.” You may consider setting up the OP differently to address that.

Thread also points out how unrealistic optimal play is...
Truth of the matter, we want to book wins, win pots, be at ease to some degree. Give people a fair shake-bake from time to time in the spirit of low-stakes community. Etc.

Assuming infinite BR, thus not afraid of variance, and decent post-flop skills, I would say all.

In practice though, we wouldn't win this pot very often, but the times we would surely would more than compensate.

six

Good cards are more important than position. I’ll take as many callers as possible.

9 x $15 is fine
3 x $45 is better
1 x $135 is best

I want everyone at the table to call.

I think this would have worked well as a poll.

The EV answer is all.

As mentioned above, this is more a Rorhschach test then anything else. If your answer is less than all, then winning pots is more important than winning money. Nothing wrong with that goal, just understand you aren't maximizing your winrate.

I don’t think “postflop skills” really come into to play when we have 9 callers. OK, we go 10 ways to the flop with $150 in the middle, $285 behind, and are nearly first to act. We got 5% of our stack in preflop — does that really mean we need to hand over the other 95% every time someone flops 2pair+?

V, just so there's no confusion, I'm not shoving for 100% of my stack preflop (where obviously the most EV situation is everyone calling); I'm only getting in 5% of my stack and then still have postflop to play.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, I'm somewhat wishy washy on this point, but in the end it's "your standard 1/3 NL table", so while the last few callers may be leaning to a very wide range (although I highly doubt to the extent of ATC), the first gaggle of callers is likely nowhere remotely close to ATC.

GcluelessNLnoobG

To be honest, I'm very surprised at the results so far.

My preference is 1 caller.

- I get it HU against one player type and one range
- I don't have to be worry about multiple player types and multiple ranges (and most realistically multiple stacks sizes, although I didn't apply it to this particular example), which makes things exponentially more difficult as players are added
- I don't have to be worried about being sandwiched inbetween players (i.e. EP bets, action is on me with the world still to react behind me)
- not a terribly unplayable SPR of 9.5; I'll be able to have lots of room to move postflop, see some streets, and be able to use my hand reading / playing skillz without being handcuffed by immediate commitment decisions
- my opponent simply won't be getting the IO to crack me due to horrendous immediate odds preflop, no shrapnel IO from others postflop, and an SPR I'm not stacking off to and can pot control against to help prevent IO
- any mistakes I make (which are possible, especially since I'm not expert, and especially due to likely being OOP) will be less magnified due to the pot being fairly small

2 callers wouldn't be horrendous, but things start getting a lot more dicey at the SPR of 6.3 where I now can be put in commitment spots a lot easier, all the while offering 2 opponents fairly decent IO of 21:1.

3 callers and things really start breaking down. SPR is now becoming a lot more handcuffing at < 5 (or are you planning to fold to just a 1/2 PSB somewhere along the way?) and 3 opponents just got IO of 22:1.

At 9 callers, 9 opponents got 29+:1 IO, which is of course awesome. The SPR will be lol < 2, so good luck getting away from our hand. Course, if we cbet, sometimes all 9 opponents will fold and we ship a huge pot. Sometimes we'll check and TP will overvalue their hand and we can ship huge money against them. Sometimes draws will simply go with their hand in this big pot even though they won't have the odds to do so. So those are certainly pluses. But on the downside, there's a very good possibility that we've been outflopped 10way, and the hand that outflopped us knows it and can play their hand relatively perfectly. I mean, 87 is very unlikely to lose any money postflop when it's behind, but likely win our stack when it's ahead. We have zero wiggle room and will likely be facing a commitment decision on the flop with little to no information.

I guess some of this really depends on what you consider your "standard 1/3 live NL game". If everyone is a moron and will stack off with any TP here even when the UTG preflop raiser continues into 9 opponents, ok, maybe not as horrific. But if everyone at the table knows there is no way anyone is bluffing 10ways, might not be a great spot.

Gyah?nah?G

ETA: And so for those in the "I hope everyone calls" camp, that means you're sizing your preflop sizing with an eye on that result? On the very small side with the hope that every single person calls? I've seen an awful lot of "bigger pre" responses in a lot of threads (that seem to be in an effort to narrow the field) which seems to contradict this idea...

GcluelessNLnoobG

Are you going to fold at any point facing a single 1/3 PSB? Cuz that's all it's going to require to get your stack in by the river.

Gjustsayin'G

You said I get to decide how many callers, you didn't say anything about how strong their hands have to be in order to call. If they're all calling, then they all have ATC because they are forced to call.

Yes, I agree, that was my point. My answer would be ideally 1 caller or perhaps 2 for the reasons you’ve outlined.

Ha, ok, I guess that is true to that extent. But to make it *slightly* more realistic, you raz, and you happen to get 9 callers (which doesn't necessarily mean everyone has ATC). Are you still happy / fistpumping?

GcluelesshappynoobG

I'm slightly less happy about it because their hands would be stronger if they are all choosing to call, but I'm still fine with it. Hard to outflop aces. You can still give up on connected type boards like 89T/KQJ/etc while having the best hand on non-connected/non-monotone flops (where you don't have the ace of the suit for a monotone flop obv).

I did some playing around with flop textures against a bunch of ranges and initially thought that this was a complex question. Our equity share tends to be the biggest post flop but is sometimes a dog - for example against tight ranges, broadway heavy flops can be really bad for us. Against ATC, low to mid coordinated boards steal our equity. Low dry flops are basically amazing for us.

Then I realised that this isn't complex at all. We want everyone to call, because we are getting 20:1 to set mine to top set, in which case we get like all the equity in a 10 way hand. That's a poker wet dream. The incredible EV we get from this scenario should more than make up for the need to play some poker when we have nut 1 pair instead.

+1

poll plz

Yeah, flopping a set of AA in this spot is definitely a good plus. I think in the recent discussions in the chat thread regarding this that someone (Lapi?) may have even suggested that we could simply play AA like 66 in this spot. But my argument against that would be that 66 is rarely put in the spot where it makes a postflop mistake, whereas AA is often put in that spot.

Also, just because this spot may be EV (which the occasional flopping of top set certainly seems to guarantee it likely will be), does it still mean that it is still more obviously EV than every other case?

GcluelessNLnoobG