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1/3- nasty turn card 1/3- nasty turn card

11-16-2011 , 05:15 AM
Button is a well dressed guy, just sat down within the past 15 minutes and bought in for full (300). Picked up a decent sized pot without a showdown.

BB is an older guy, plays tight. Had been with him at the table about 4-5 hours.He busted and reloaded about 200.

Edit:
I think my image is tight, aggressive and winning. In the past hour or so I'd taken down a few nice sized pots.

Hero, UTG, 7,7 - 600ish stack limps
folds to button
Button has 383, limps
BB- 200, limps

Flop-$10
6,7J
BB checks
Hero bets 7
button raises to 17
BB calls
Hero raises to 68

Button tanks forever, then calls
BB calls.

Pot-$214
Turn-K
BB check
Hero????

Now we bet the turn to get value from 2 pair type hands, and as a blocker against flushes, and perhaps get value from some straight draws?

Or do we check, and then fold if button shoves?

Last edited by Urielx; 11-16-2011 at 05:29 AM.
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11-16-2011 , 06:08 AM
This is the kind of spot I'm ALWAYS checking, feeling nitty. Folding to a more than halfpot bet unimproved. Would love to know the optimal line tho. Against two players and our raise, I'm having trouble believing we're getting bluffed/bet off by 2 pair anywhere near enough.
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11-16-2011 , 06:35 AM
why are you limping with 7s utg plus someone has a flush here all the time. check, hope they bet small and boat up on the river
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11-16-2011 , 10:30 AM
OP I think the real problem is not donking larger. Betting $12 on the flop is something you want to add to your repetroire. LL playerse don't really see the difference in 7, or $12 on the flop and it quickly builds the pot up. If you made it $12, he raises to $30. Then you can make it $120 and go from there.

As played, I am checking this turn. It's a bit nasty, and I think villain has a lot of flushes in his range. I fold if he bets more than 100. Not sure if he continues with less than 2 pair/NFD on that flop.
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11-16-2011 , 11:30 AM
Tough spot w/tight BB still in. I'm tempted to bet/fold $85-$90 but appears the BB range is weighted toward a draw so a bet would commit more than I am willing. We also are telling the opponents 'no flush' if we check. As played, I reluctantly check since this is multi-way.

Is B raising a draw OTF? I think big spades, i.e >Js are raising pre. Perhaps JTs, 98s. I don't think AJ is calling a 4x raise, perhaps 76. Set over set would be sweet, but improbable.

PF - raise to table standard; bet/re-raise flop.
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11-16-2011 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool
OP I think the real problem is not donking larger. Betting $12 on the flop is something you want to add to your repetroire. LL playerse don't really see the difference in 7, or $12 on the flop and it quickly builds the pot up. If you made it $12, he raises to $30. Then you can make it $120 and go from there.

As played, I am checking this turn. It's a bit nasty, and I think villain has a lot of flushes in his range. I fold if he bets more than 100. Not sure if he continues with less than 2 pair/NFD on that flop.
Paragraph 1 is massively important.
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11-16-2011 , 01:17 PM
I'd also limp preflop.

I'd just donk the pot on the flop (or we can even probably get away with overbetting, say to $15). No one is playing for $7 but not for $10 (and for that matter, probably $15), so I think a smallish bet here is a mistake. I like the flop reraise size, looks to be offering rather sucky 2:1 odds; although against 2 opponents (especially one that called a bet and a raise), we might be able to get away with more.

I'd probably check this sucky turn card and hope that if someone bets they underbet the pot giving me odds to call. If someone bets large (not giving us proper odds to chase) then I think we have to fold; we're in a 3 way action situation here, none of these guys is bluffing the turn.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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11-16-2011 , 02:24 PM
10 handed I'm only raising 10s+ and AQs+ utg. I think with the massive amount of people that call in these games raising small-mid pairs that early can lead to some trouble. Earlier in the session I raise K/Qo on the button to 24 and everyone that limped ended up calling making it 6 ways. I'm pretty content seeing a cheap flop OOP with that kind of hand.

Here I'm not worried about an over set ever really, I highly doubt someone would limp JJ with only 1 caller and the blinds left to act. This is also why I'm not sure the button has a strong suited ace. If someone is going to limp the button with like A/10s+ that's pretty awful.

edit: There was actually someone that overbet a small limped pot a bit earlier and a few people at the tabled did make comments about it.

I generally don't overbet small pots like that, especially when it's so easy for them to count (was 1-5, and 5-1s). Doesn't an overbet look much stronger then a 2/3s pot bet?

Last edited by Urielx; 11-16-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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11-16-2011 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urielx
I generally don't overbet small pots like that, especially when it's so easy for them to count (was 1-5, and 5-1s). Doesn't an overbet look much stronger then a 2/3s pot bet?
The flop in a limped pot is the only time we can overbet the pot without anyone really noticing/caring what percentage of the pot it is. Throw in 2 or 3 red chips, no one cares, it's only $10 or $15 dollars and that's what people bet on the flop. When you're on the turn and betting $150 into a $100 pot, that's when people will begin to think that's a helluva big bet.
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11-16-2011 , 03:01 PM
preflop is ok given the right table dynamics as is raising or folding cant really give you a 100% standard answer there.

general question rando 1/2 player is raising less often with draws on the flop than J good kicker or 2 pair hands right? I mean just in general 1/2 players play draws passive. The fact that he took a long time to call flop 3bet means he had something to think about which makes me think he has less draws in his range.

Turn is pretty close to a value bet IMO, just because it is getting checked trough alot if he has a similar strength hand and you are in a crappy spot c/c here.
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11-16-2011 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
The flop in a limped pot is the only time we can overbet the pot without anyone really noticing/caring what percentage of the pot it is. Throw in 2 or 3 red chips, no one cares, it's only $10 or $15 dollars and that's what people bet on the flop. When you're on the turn and betting $150 into a $100 pot, that's when people will begin to think that's a helluva big bet.
Ah ok, I'll have to try it!

Generally I don't think most people keep track of pot sizes after maybe the flop. This is also why I use Bart Hanson's method of betting with the biggest chips possible so it's easier for the randoms to count.
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11-16-2011 , 06:20 PM
Check the turn. It is too easy to own yourself here. I wouldn't count on a 1/2 pot bet acting as a blocker against many made flushes or getting value from SD's.

Hope to check it through. If not, call a smaller bet. You have a 23% chance to hit a boat on the river and possibly stack a flush.

By the way, I like to the $12 flop-bet suggestion. I am going to incorporate that into my game.
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