I opened this thread thinking it would involve limping pre, and was not disappointed.

I probably limp on the button pre also.

Fold flop against this villain.

Turn is interesting and a lot depends on how you are viewed by the Villain. Since you are viewed as nitty, what do you think the Villain is calling you with/putting you on (he could be leveling himself here I suppose)? I would not really put AA/KK in Villain's range based on pre but you would have a better idea of that. I also think the average player will not call such a large turn raise with a draw only unless it's 5d4d, so with that bet sizing you are selecting hands that beat/tie you as the most likely ones that call. There are quite a few hands with the case 6 in them. On the turn you beat only 4 of the 6x combos and will chop with them often. This villain also seems like he would never fold a 6 in this spot so you're putting a lot of money in against hands that on average beat you. I would raise smaller, probably $105-115. If you want to really keep your nit image you can call turn and call river, which will get you lots of "you can never be too careful" comments.

Once the Villain calls and the river misses the draws, I'm checking it back.

I actually can't believe all the "fold pre" comments, to be honest. I think the only argument for folding preflop is if we play poorly postflop (and in my case, that might be a valid argument given the way I played the hand postflop, so point taken).

Seriously, we're 133 BBs deep against two opponents plus we have position plus it's for 1 BB. I actually think folding here is horrible. Even HOC states that one of the biggest mistakes noobs make when playing NL is actually playing too tight and just waiting for top 10% hands in deeper stack games (we're not deep here, but we're not exactly shortstacked either), and suggests instead to actually get in to as many pots as possible with potential monster making hands when conditions are right (i.e. in LP, for cheap, with bigger stacks, against the right opponents).

Point taken about the 2 players behind me on the flop; I am gambling that their check indicates they are probably done with the hand. If I get raised obviously I'm out, but I'll hate myself for wasting 5 BBs.

My plan on the flop is admittedly very hazy; at best, it's "see a turn in position against a known early street bluffer and see what happens". At this point, I'm not thinking of calling down reasonable sized bets; but if he bets super small on the turn, I might consider calling small bets. I'm also thinking that once tighty me calls the flop that there is a good chance he just gives up with his air/etc. and checks the turn; not exactly sure what I'm doing in that case, perhaps betting then checking behind the river, perhaps trying to check to showdown (and bluffcatching on the river). Ditto for if a scare flush card comes and he checks, I think I probably do try to bluff the turn (but I'll then probably give up on the river if called). And point taken about improving to a good but second best hand where I can lose a lot (which I never considered at the time).

I can count the number of times during a session I call a flop bet with 2nd pair / no draw in a multiway pot usually on one finger, so it's something I do very rarely. Admittedly my immediate pot odds suck (although I'm guessing my implied odds make up for that, but I could be very wrong), but other than that, I didn't think this was a bad situation to try this. Looks like I'm wrong.

GcluelessNLnoobG

First of all, disclaimer: I have a twisted attachment to 68. I play it when I shouldn't, so I won't comment on preflop, since I have no right and no rep there.

Flop is obviously not great but I can see why you called vs. this villain.

I think the turn is a good play. 150 seems high, but it's just $5 more than a pot-sized raise. What's wrong with that? You'll get in more trouble not betting trips than you will betting them, generally. Even though his comment about "just flat, I go broke" might be a factor, I still think the raise is best, even if it is a tad high. Charge him!

I think the river shove is probably profitable too, especially if you think this guy calls you with the following range:

any case 6, QQ, 33, AQ, AA, KK

5 combos that chop
13 combos that beat you
24 combos that you beat (!)

Notice this range doesn't include any hands like Qx (including KQ). If his calling range is any wider than this, you're in great shape. If, however, you were wrong about AA and KK being in the range, it gets very close.

What you say here is all correct however how a player plays postflop is critical when deciding to limp a trash hand. My observation, whether the hand won or lost is that it was overplayed in a way that it shut out villains range that we are ahead of and left us with a range mostly that is ahead of us. The old saying, dont go broke in a limped pot actually applies well to this very example IMO.

Normally, when weak players allow any competent player to limp the button with even T6o etc, it is correct to do so, if the players are really weak and pitiful postflop. Problem is, most players dont play as well postflop as they would like to think. (General example and not directing toward OP here)

At the time OP may have had his reasons for thinking as he did on the turn. I just see it as one of the types of mistakes players "can" make in these spots. I still wouldnt like it if hero stacked villains FD here since a FD will be the smaller part of the villain range calling the turn raise AND villain must be a huge fish to call such a raise on turn with Qx only. So vs certain fish, this could be fine. Up to hero here to have evaluated that properly or not.

but go knows, only a horrid fish would call the turn raise AND the river shove with Qx.

This may sound silly to 2+2'ers, but I really believe the 'all-in' factor greatly affects the way live donkeys proceed with a hand. Villain perceives you as a nit, and you just shoved the river. He probably thinks you have... well, what you have!

I'd probably make it the same bet on the river, like $150 or $200. If he has us beat, we're losing our stack no matter what. However, if he has Qx or even some random pocket pair, he's definitely calling the river after calling that big raise on the turn. We need to make villain feel comfortable... which is why I prefer a $150 bet over an all in. Sounds like he's good enough to fold QT here to an all in.

However, he also sounds like a gambler willing to call another big bet on the river with just a pair.

Against some hero-calling 22-year-old head-phone-wearing kid, sure, shove and make him think about it.

But against a live donkey, just bet an amount that will make him feel OK about calling.

*If* I'm going to bet on the river (FWIW, I'm now thinking I did overplay this hand on turn/river), then it's my believe that the only bet with these stack/pot sizes is a shove. The pot is $340. A $235 shove is only a very reasonable 70% PSB (this is actually one of the reasons I raised so large on the turn, as I wanted to easily play for stacks on the river). I also believe we're leaving money on the table by making not-quite PSBs. For example, if villain calls $150 (a large 50 BB bet) 50% of the time, he only has to call a shove a mere 32% of the time; you think there is that big a difference between the calling of the two (he calls a $150 1.5 times as much as a shove)? And the difference between any villain calling a $200 bet and a $235 shove is virtually zero, IMO; if he's calling $200 50% of the time then he's calling a $235 shove much much much more than 43%.

Nh. We aren't losing to much and he can call worse. Wp

Does the fact worse 6s now chop make any difference?

I like that you're going out of your way to play hands vs villain-- perhaps you could iso him pre but the call is fine too.
Do you have a plan for the turn when you call the flop? I think you're right that he bets 100% of his range here, but were you going to raise a card other than an 8 or a 6 OTT? If you were going to give up if you didn't hit, then it's a really bad flop call. You very well may have been planning to raise the turn, you just didn't happen to mention it.

I like the size of your turn raise, for both the pricing out of flush draws and for the sake of getting stacks in on river.

I think I probably check behind on the river. Given your nitty table image I don't think I like a shove. I really think that villain is capable of folding AA, AK, and AQ on a paired board here vs a player with your table image.

But if our plan is to check back the river (unless we hit our 3 outer), why are we concerned about building a pot so that we can get stacks in (i.e. is that inconsistent)? Although pricing out the flush draw still applies.

(for my very "hazy" idea of my turn plan, see an earlier post)

I mean I considered that but there are only a few 6X combos we were even beating. He may even fold a 6 that would have been a chop if we shove so that's a win as well.

I see so few reasons to not shove once we get here. I see ppl saying things like 33/QQ but those times occur vastly less frequently then when he has QJ and clicks call.

If we are going to play limped hands at all, we have to be willing to occasionally play big pots with them. This is a pretty good one to make big. It's tough for him to have better but somewhat easy to see him calling with worse.

Also, does this guy ever flat the turn and check the river with better?!?!

I meant that we build a nice sized pot for him to semi-bluff shove into us on the river, in which case it's a call. Should have clarified.

Isn't shoving to hope to be called by Qx but folding 6x a little inconsistent in thinking?

Good point. I'll admit that when the turn was flatted and the river was checked to me that I thought I had the mortal nuts, so I was basically freerolling with my bet.

Ok, makes sense.

Is it bad that I would really love to know if villain called?

+1

I'm guessing it probably is bad because it doesn't really matter (whether he called or, if he did, what he called with). I'm thinking the results only matter for getting a better read for later hands against.

C'mon, GG. Don't be shy. We won't even berate you or anything.

Okay, fine, I'll make up an ending:

Villain tanked for about 30 seconds, said, "I don't think you have it, do you?" You remained a rock and didn't respond, villain folded, showing just a Q.

GandtheylivedhappilyeveraftertheendG

Villain calls, and shows A6.

For the curious (and as thanks to those who responded, although I still think this is unimportant results orientedness):

^^^ moral of the story is to fold the flop; just kdding, kind of. Your reasoning for calling the flop is pretty valid. Just saying, for a moment you know what the fishies feel like when they hit their what perceives to be the best hand. I.e. a villain hits 2 pair on the turn after calling with bottom pair or hits a weak flush on a paired board and is just calling on autopilot before he hits his hand and then thinks its best.