1/3 live game hero is very new to table; 5 or so hands in. Only info to opponents on Hero is he opened first hand played kinda on the large side in EP/MP over an UTG limper. Everyone folded. Game is 8 handed. Villain early middle aged (35-45?) Asian fellow handles chips like he is familiar and comfortable at table; have seen him flat someones open and then fold flop to a cbet.

This is the 5th hand I've been present for at this table:

V1 (200) on BU RFI to 13. SB Folds. Hero in BB KcTd calls.
Flop (27) Kd8s7c
Hero checks, v bets 13, hero calls.
Turn Tc. Hero?

Do you ever donk lead here? A check back isn't ideal and is likely if villain has any kind of one-pair hand or gutshot/FD where he wants to just realize his equity for free. If checking here, what is hero's plan facing a bet and what is his plan facing the river card when it checks through?

(Yes, preflop can be a discussion too as this can be a fold depending on circumstances; in this game vs a button open even when villain is unknown I'm comfortable with my expected skill edge playing KTo OOP, acknowledging that depending on villain there is risk it is only borderline +/-EV.)

Even though we have a decentish defending hand, with that size open, I'd fold pre.

I will sometimes donk strong hands to induce a raise if I think V considers donks to mean weak made hands.

With not much info on V, I probably wouldn't donk. I'd likely c/c turn and most rivers, though if turn checked through, I might donk river to try to get some value.

3bet pre and there's no reason to donk out ott, it will just help him fold out his bluffs or mediocre hands. A c/r is a better option to get more money in since we're OOP and can't really depend on him taking another shot at it otr.

There wasnt a flush draw on the flop and while the turn brings up some possible gutters, I think we do better allowing his 1pairs to bet so we can c/r and giving his weaker hands a chance to bluff turn, or bluff catch our river bet if he checks. On a wetter board perhaps a donkbet makes more sense.

I'm not thrilled with calling pre, but here we are.

With the little info you gave, V sounds capable enough to fold to a donk and only continue w/ better or with a decent drawing hand -- and there are plenty of draws. Check/call or check/raise -- kind of depends on sizing and my read of what he has. Would kind of suck if he shoved.

Fold pre. Maybe three-bet with KTs but not KTo.

AP, donk, c/d, and c/r are all reasonable plays depending on your read of the villain. I would not draw conclusions based on the villain's comfort with his chips. I know lots of players who are better stacking their chips than playing poker. On the turn, I would make sure to observe the villain to see if he's getting ready to bet. I'm probably donking here for value and hope the villain is a calling station, not a nit. But I also bet and raise too much.

It's a btn open guys come on. Folding pre is bad. I'm calling down to K8o vs anyone and down to K6o if I think v is particularly bad.

Population here is giving money away by under defending in hu pots vs lp opens. It's live poker so yes the opens are large but it's still live villians and they're terrible. Use normal ranges

As for the hand yeah I like a lead on the turn. He isn't going to bet often enough and check raising when he does bet is going to make for a lot of tough spots on the river vs a range that is relatively strong

An interesting mix of responses. Personally, I hate folding. Raising, when OOP, unless I'm pretty sure I have relative position, is also something I have an aversion to. So, calling is fine with me.

OK with the c/c on the flop too.

I think I'd go for the c/r OTT.

With no real reads, there's no shame in just folding this early in your session. At best, folding KTo in the SB to a raise is costing you a few pennies. If you're going to play, a 3bet is better.

Indeed. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that even with the acknowledged caveat about the debate-ability and marginal nature of defending KTo in the BB to a large-ish open, people feel strongly about it one way or the other so it gets discussed. Obviously I'm in the camp that this is a reasonable defend at least some portion of the time under some circumstances. For those that feel differently, I respect and appreciate the input and acknowledge that under some circumstances (maybe many circumstances including this one possibly) the more conservative approach is appropriate.

Seems this advice does find it's way into many posts... "just 3bet more pre". In a general sense I love this advice. In a practical sense here in this situation this seems sketch to me. If KTo is in my 3bet pre range for BB vs BU then so is a ton of other stuff inflating my 3bet frequency to a place I would expect to be exploited by quality players. Wouldn't this make me pretty spewey? Anyway this is a good topic I'm curious about... maybe KTo is a reasonable and profitable 3bet vs a BU open. When I get time I'll make another 3bet-pre specific post to discuss actual ranges those of you who might be viewed as "3bet happy" preflop to explore just what you include and what you don't, and your approaches post-flop OOP in the larger 3bet pot with holdings that might make me a little skiddish. (like KTo )


On to the rest of the hand...

One comment was that the board wasn't that wet, but I felt it was in the sense that the turn that blessed me with 2 pair just blessed villain with some kind of outs to get there. Almost any card other than a K, T, or an offsuit wheel card hitting the river devalues my hand. The board is Kd8s7cTc. There are tons of hands in villains range that have outs to a better hand: AK-A6 all have gutshots or 2-pair-plus draws. AJ, QJ, and all his 9x hands are open ended. Villain has many gutshots. He may have a handful of one-pair-plus-gutshots or one-pair-plus-OESD... and of course the BDFD for clubs is there now. I think of this as extremely wet; am I using the wrong terminology here? In any case this is what made me feel maybe the donk lead would be best. Many hands to get value from... many hands to either deny equity or charge villain for attempting to realize equity.

People gave a mix of input on how to play this turn, so maybe there isn't a clear perfect way to play and the EV of all the options are pretty close. Now I'm leaning more towards the donk-lead being slightly superior. In-game I checked with intention to c/r as long as the villain didn't do anything that would set off alarm bells. (sizing or physical tells of extreme strength) Villain checked back,Qh was the river. Do you think leading for value here makes sense? Any thoughts on best line AP with this river?


This sums up quite well why after the fact I felt maybe going for the c/r line wasn't optimal and this may be a sensible place for a donk lead. Drowski, what sizing would you like?

Half pot seems good. We're in exploit land when we lead so bet whatever amount you think will fold out a minimal amount of his range

Not particularly great to lead this card bc you’re simultaneously preempting potential bluffs while blocking the hands you have near dead while also now losing to a series of Btn opens that either turned a straight or have piles of equity and position that can continue best as calls and leave you pretty fkdd on a lot of rivs. Think about it on a simpler level, you’re making the hand easier to play for him too with the exception of the Kx hands that are going to be played for similar amounts of money whether you lead or Ckc turn.

Seems as if your thought process was the same as mine (wet board on turn, c/c or c/r depending on size/read). I'd go ahead and bet about half pot now -- a simple $25. Hope he can't fold a pair / thinks you are buying it.

I fold preflop. In a raked game with no other dead money in the pot, only one of us (at best) can be long term profitable in this spot, and I have my doubts whether KTo is going to be strong enough to make that us when the Button has position and initiative. But that's me.

I'm fine with flop.

The turn is part of the problem with playing OOP; the other guy just owns us on everything related to IO and RIO. I would probably lean to playing in flow and checking (to raise) and hoping to induce again, but obviously we'll see a lotta check backs that betting probably ain't horrible either (especially on a drawy board).

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