Given the way this hand played out, and the fact that you got a pretty damn good river card, I think you should bet whatever amount a hand like AQ will call. I'm thinking around $100.

Also I'm not betting that flop either, but I think you should bet near pot on the turn. At that point, your hand is probably best and that's still a very drawy board, so make a serious bet to protect your hand.

I don't see how we're checking this flop especially given the descriptions of the villains in this hand. There are so many hands we get value from JJ TT 88 A9 any draw or pair+draw

How can you say this after describing 2 villains as overvaluing hands. So when it checks to the cutoff and by your description he would bet A9 and definitely TT so how are we ever c/f here?

Grunching.

-PF raise somewhere between 5-7x and expect at lease 1-2 callers

-flop why in the world did u check? 2 big fish in hand super wet board this is b/f all day

As played keep value betting imo but I think you really should re-eval ur flop play and pre as well though pre wasn't as bad.

jesus ****ing christ i wish I would have just written that I raised it to 15, in my note I wrote 15 but I though I might have raised it to 12 as I was thinking about the hand so I wrote 12 in this ****ing post but seriously it really doesn't matter. I'm in MP, 1 off the HJ so its not like I'm min raising in front of the entire field.

life tilt engaged

flop is just so bad I passed on the situation, maybe I'm wrong

Preflop is absolutely fine. C/f flop is pretty weak here, as others have said there's plenty of 1pair and/or draw hands that will call you, and it's not like these are super aggro players who will raise their draw. B/f flop for like $40 is better imo.


River I really don't like c/c at all for similar reasons, based on description of villains they don't seem bluffy so if they bet you're probably beat, especially if one bets and the other calls. I'm torn between b/f and c/f and I'm leaning toward c/f here but idk.

PF isn't that big a deal 4x is still pretty standard in just think at this limit u can raise bigger and still get paid wout ppl releasing what ur doing exploiting u.

Not betting the flop however is flushing fat value imo and a leak.

Pre is fine flop is fine. 45 or more on turn for same reason you arent betting flop. Half pot is too small. Id bet river.

16 preflop. I would still bet the flop if people are passive and won't be getting it in with draws too often.

Yeah once they check through the flop deffo bet this dry turn and deffo bet the river reasonably big so queen will call

Hand is played fine. Imo, the delta in EV between betting this kind of flop or checking it through, against these villain types is likely zero or close to it

river $60-70...probably a b/f but I reserve the right to see which of the fish raises and to how much before I decide to muck.....you are underepped and look alot like a delayed cbet (if they can see that)

I love how every time we end up and a iffy spot postflop many responses are "should have raised more preflop"

I mean its so results orientated, there is no way to really quantify that with any accuracy. Yeah you can figure out what the pot size would have been but your are also assuming that all villains ranges preflop are totally inelastic meaning they are calling preflop with the exact same hands to a 4x raise as they are to a 6x raise and so on. For some villains this may be the case, but to act as if that is the case in general,that is not true at all.

you are also completely ignoring the fact that when you raise really big preflop you are sometimes folding out hands like QJ or other weak Broadway hands that we may stack/get good value vs someone when they flop TP but they will fold preflop if we raise too big.

This is also one of the worst flops for our hand so its pretty much the worse case scenario, no one would be clamoring to raise more preflop if the board was Q28 and we bet the flop got a call barreled the turn and everyone folded.

Grunch:

bets 80......

flop isn't standard but it's totally fine although the turn bet should be larger. River sizing depends on how loose/inelastic villains' calling ranges are. 85 seems like a good size.

People auto-betting this flop need to think a bit more about future streets, turn cards, and likely actions.

Been so close to going on a similar rant lately, but this pretty much says it all.

There are plenty of times when "raise more pre" is perfectly good advice. Someone opening to 4x in mp is not one of those times.

And to add something worthwhile to the current discussion, I'd go pretty big on the river (75+%). Your line is weird and they have lots of Qx hands that I'd expect a call from.

I bet this river ~always, about 80 like Gus said. We're missing value by checking and we're certainly not trying to induce.

If preflop opening was 15/that's fine. Different games have different openings but I trust you opened appropriately here.

IMO flop bet is standard here, tho I can see argument for checking I disagree. We don't want someone w/A9 betting after we check and then we get scared and fold. Aggressive poker wins more $.

yeah realistically this is like the best card in the deck

Grunching; I think I raise a bit more pre. Probably 17-18(might thin the field a touch more).
As played I check flop like every time. Lol such a bad flop. Turn I bet bigger again like 45 just because draws aren't folding and Qx isn't folding.
I def think river is a good card. And bet fold about 60ish. We only really get looked up by Qx but I think there are a lot of Qx in their range after turn.

Just gonna touch on the river situation, it's a bet for me, around 70, your hand is underepped and the turn and river cards are sexy in this situation, expect to be called by Qx. Not how I'd play flop, turn but I don't hate any of your reasoning. Nh

As played, I would probably b/f river for ~85. I just don't think you're getting paid off by worse if you bet more. And really, the only hands that are raising at this point are 76 and 87. If Q9 didn't raise the turn, they certainly aren't raising now.

However, based on your descriptions of the other players, I would definitely bet the flop, and I'd bet it hard. ~$40. You're not getting raised by one of these players with a pair/draw combo type hand. Anyone with a set or straight is obviously raising, and most two-pairs should be raising, as well. So if you get raised, you can fold.

If you get called and a 5/8/T or spade hits and someone bets, you can fold with confidence. When the Q hit, depending on how many players called the flop, I'm betting half pot and charging draws and one pair hands.

I agree that this is a bad flop for our hand, but b/f'ing flop makes the hand much easier to play and we still get plenty of value too. I'm actually stunned so many people said checking the flop was fine. Are your plans to just c/f flop? c/c'ing flop is pretty bad too since it leaves us guessing where we're at for the remainder of the hand.

As played, I bet river for value and expect to win the pot a lot of the time.

Preflop is fine since it folded to hero in LP, maybe take note and bet a little more next time since you got so many callers.

yep

Are we b/f against both players? If we make it $80-90 on the river and the short stack pushes (for another $60-70 more) are we letting it go. Obviously, if the larger stack pushes for $200+, then that is a different story.

This is why I like 50-60 better on the river; we allow ourselves room to fold vs short stack

Grunch - Why did you check the flop? There are a ton of horrible turn cards for you and out of five people at least one is usually going to have two pair or better by the turn. I would have made it 15 pre but as played I am betting 40 on the flop and 95 on the turn. River is one of the best cards for you. As played I bet 80 on river