Hero: late 20s white male. Just sat down 30 min ago so image should be superficial. I have more of a "smart guy" vibe than degen, in my personal opinion, so make of it what you will. Stack $290

Villain 1: 30s white male. Action player at the table. He's playing like 70% of his hands preflop. Not too many 3 betting but he keeps being in hands by being the only caller or opening up. Haven't seen him play a big hand, mostly just lose money or pick up a flop pot. Stack $240

Villain 2: 20s white male. Gives off a TAG vibe. Played a few hands, a limp/fold, a raise no take a flop down, and a raise on the btn where he adjusted for multiple limps and made it like 26 and got all folds. Stack $1k

On to the hand!

Folds to V1 MP who opens to 15 (his standard), MP player calls, folds to V2 on BTN who makes it 60, SB folds, Hero in BB looks down at KK and...

Given the situation V2 can be trying to punish V1 with any moderately good hand so your way ahead of their ranges. Your OOP with two opponents so raising is in order and with your stack you can't raise and fold.

The only interesting thing is finding a good raise size. You can min raise, you can make it $150 or you can shove. They all look very strong and which is best is more about the psychology of the players behind then math. Your committed here unless both call and the flop comes A high and even then it will be hard to fold.

The $60 is big enough you can make a case for just flatting and trying to get it in post flop. It probably gives you a better chance of getting both villains to flop but it's also very suspicious and it may be hard to make any more money post flop.

Easy call

I don't hate the call if you never bluff in this spot. But if you're gonna have a 4bet bluff range here, then you should raise now. I think having a bluff range here is good. Smart(er) button iso'ing a wide range opener, making it 140 to go as a bluff I think is profitable. So make it 140 w AA KK too.

All in

I'm not flatting OOP, raise enough that he calls with the top of his range.

do you understand how this is turning our hand face up

Cold oop 4bet bluff range @ 1/3? ��

Are we really trying to drive V1 out and ensure winning the minimum?

4bet to 130/135. The sizing is small enough where he can still bluff shove, and for 70/75 more he may just call with marginal hands.

Does anyone have a cold 4-bet bluff range in a 1/3 game? This seems like suicide.

I probably jam here. Sure, our hand is face up, but it's rare that people 3-bet/fold. Do we really think he's letting go of AK? I don't but he can fold it on the flop if he whiffs.

Understandable if we are putting him on the top of his range, but if we think he's just 3betting light to force V1 out of the pot do we really want to shove and have no chance at getting anymore money?

Why would he 3-bet to get a fish out of the pot? Sure, there could be dynamic here, but if I haven't seen him 3-betting much I'm going to default that he's on a strong range and will have a hard time folding.

You 3 bet for value vs fish. But his value range should be realley wide here.



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What your doing with AK in this spot. Is deciding factor for me.

If you think shipping KK here is bad. Then we should probably be shipping AK as bluff.

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I understand the former point, but generally don't think other Vs adjust this way without evidence. So even though I'd open up by 3-betting more in position here (hands like KQ, AJ, etc) for value against and to iso the fish, I usually think other people just play their "normal" 3-bet range until I have some evidence to the contrary. A lot of people adjust to a loose opener by calling more, rather than 3-betting more.

Ha, we just had a similar thread to this the other day.

Think I'm in the call camp again. We risk facing an A high flop (admittedly an ugly result) but otherwise we're kinda cool inviting the loose whale along to see a flop with us, and then will probably only have about a ~PSB left where we could just open shove like 8 high flops and perhaps get both to call off against us.

GcluelessflattingnoobG

The SPR will be so lol small that being OOP won't be too much of a factor.

GimoG

I don't like a call here because it may very well end up 4 way to the flop with you OOP. I like the raise to around 130-140.

He's obviously positionally aware and we're way ahead of his 3bet range otb.

I'm usually one for always narrowing the field, but I think I'm fine going 4ways to a flop with KK if everyone is cool with putting in a huge 1/5th of their stack preflop.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Flat, lead small on alot of flops

Yeah, donking small is probably better than shoving the ~PSB left (which is more likely to induce hero folds).

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's tough to say whether or not V2 would continue to a cold 4b though even with hands as strong as QQ, since our raise just looks like the top 1% of hands.

As for a cold 4b bluffing range, AKo/AQo are valid candidates in the right scenario at 2/5. Not sure about an average 1/3 game though.

Flat.

For those advocating a flat, what's your play if it comes all low cards, something like 223 with a FD? Are we bet/calling, check/calling or jamming ourself, or just open jamming? Pot would be ~140ish after rake and I'd have $230 behind.

For those wanting to 4bet to 135+ are we wanting a flat or him to go AI? If he does just call is there any board we aren't jamming, besides obvious boards like monotone diamonds or hearts?

(re: flatting)

The more drawy the flop comes, the more I'd lean towards an open jam (hopefully repping a draw myself to get snapped off by worse overpairs). The less drawy the board, the more I'd just donk very small and let others do my dirty work for me (plus prevent worse overpairs from making hero folds).

Gprobablycheck/foldingifanAceflopsG

+1

Not sure why everyone wants folds from hands we dominate

I'd still jam monotone diamonds or hearts... we're pretty much committed but if we have a solid read and I guess there's some nightmare boards like AQJ we might puke fold.

As for whether he calls or shoves, I'm indifferent. We need to call a shove with half our stack in the pot... obviously I'm not thrilled about it because I've had KK vs AA a few times last month but given our assumptions that V2 is much more active on the button (as he should be) I think his 3bet/squeeze range here is significantly wider than aces.

Obviously any ace really sucks, but I don't think I can get away from it.