What’s up guys. I’m transitioning from online and need help playing hands like this. What’s the best line here?

Hero has about $500 behind. Opens to $12 from UTG+1. 4 callers, didn’t get a good look at stacks but I think everyone has at least $250.

Flop ($64) comes Q95 rainbow.

B.B. checks.

What should our line be here?

Not flop where we are getting raised often.

So betting and checking both fine. If we have backdoor flush draw I lean towards betting. As we improve with a lot of turns.

It would help to know something about the other players. Versus random 1/3 players, I would lead for $35 - $40 and evaluate.

I don't mind the raise pre, but again it would help to know who I'm up against.

Great flop for us and hits most of our range as pfr utg+1, AA, AK, KK, QQ, AQ. I like a Cbet here, 35/40 sounds good. Definitely wouldn't expect to get raised on that flop. Probably get at least 2 folds. Re evaluate turn.

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Yup. Sometimes when we bet we even end up taking it down now, or buying position to take a card if we'd like.


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No big whales at the table, but most of the players were kinda sticky post flop. So it’s okay to bluff into five players here? This is probably my biggest question mark.

Anyway, I ended up betting $50. Older Asian guy to my left (stack of about $230 on the turn) calls. He seems solid. Hasn’t limped into any pots and he’s been fairly active. 3 folds.

Turn ($114) is 4c.

Do we barrel off now?

You bet too much on the flop. You should rarely be betting that much no matter what you have. The pot isnt $114. Its $164

Did you pick up a flush draw?

Nah, pretty sure my suit wasn't on the board. And damn, you're right. Pot's $164.

So flop bet should be around $35-$40 if we fire? And firing without a bdfd on the flop would be a bad idea here, right?

Great thing about LLNL is the players will almost always let you dictate the action and/or might not be much aware of pot size and what you "should" bet.

So, I'd bet like 20 to 25 on this flop. Give myself a nice price to draw against a queen.

Additionally, you might get some worse draws to come along. Holding the OESD, it's pretty nice if you get a queen and a nine to hang in there, or maybe even something like AK or AJ, adding money to your pots.

You'll also have a lot of flexibility on the turn, including the ability to under bet again.

AP, as he called your big flop bet, I don't think you're getting a fold on a total blank too often. As it's a raised pot, he figures to have Qwith a good kicker or more pretty often.

Also, two of the Qs he might conceivably fold are QJ and QT.

So, I try to avoid this situation, but now that we're in it, I'd revert to naming my price on the draw. You could make the same bet again, and only a handful of Vs will react by raising you when they weren't going to anyway.

Bet smaller on flop. Something like $40 is better.

As played, with $164 in the pot and $230 behind, the best thing we can do is to overbet jam. There isn't much room to pick any other bet sizing that will continue to tell the same story that we've told on the flop (the story is that we're an OMC with KK that is scared to give away a free card).

This is suicide. Won't survive long playing passive villains with this line. But given our large flop bet. Are only option if we don't want to give up.

We block, Q-10, QJ. QK and Aq likely puke call. Sets call and 2 pair call. Which most LLsnl range is limited to here.

Other route is to check, and hope we get to realize our equity. But that is not likely considering his super strong range here. But they may play scared and check all their Queens.

Poor flop sizing cost us value when we have overpair. Also cost us our equity when we don't. Only benefit to our sizing is we created fold equity. Which is strongly outweighed by loss of value.

When guys start "setting price". It is super obvious to more than few guys at table. I do not suggest to anyone to try this. Sure betting $30 instead of $35 gives us slight edge.

But when we see you bomb $40 with over pairs, and $20 with draws and weak hands. Expect anyone with brain to pick up on that and charge you extra for draws, and make you fold your weaker hands. Or more likely. Just call down with small PP or bottom pair.

If you are comming from online to offline, so you should know this conception,most of the players including regs, are too lose,excepting nits, so you should value bet more than bluff , than you do it online. I think your line will be -ev, if will do this raise and play that way on this flop every time when you have JTs this position and this stacks. Play more tight, dont bluff and try semibluff less,more valuebet,and your life offline will be much easy.

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I would just open fold at most tables but if I was to play I think an open limp is better than a raise at most tables, and this one looks to be the perfect example. All a raise does is bloat a pot OOP and bring the SPR way down, and we don't want a small SPR with this hand, we want a large one where we can play multiple streets and use our postflop skillz (instead of facing mostly commitment decisions on the flop, which mostly won't bode well with this hand especially when we flop just TP which is mostly what we'll flop).

I would probably cbet very small, like no more than $25. I'm just trying to set my price, mostly give myself good odds if someone does a poor raise size, possibly take it down once in-a-blue-moon, possibly freeze someone from betting the turn given my preflop/flop strength, and otherwise I should have decent equity against almost a lot of hands (ex: against 9x we're basically flipping and have some FE). My plan would mostly be to give up UI if anyone calls and evaluate whether I think calling a later bet is profitable. Note how playing in position here is *far* more profitable as giving up on the turn usually means checking back to take our free card and realize our equity, which is much harder to do OOP. In a 5way pot, I also don't just hate check/calling.

ETA: If we're betting the flop, I'm really in the bet small camp. The difference in FE versus a Q between betting $50 vs $25 is exactly 0% (for realz) and it honestly isn't all that much greater versus stuff like 9x. The other thing you've unwittingly done thanks to preflop and flop is left your opponent with about a PSB left for the turn, which plays right into their TP hands where they can safely commit on the turn without risk of big bets still behind; if you're plan is to double barrel for stacks hoping to get TP to fold with these stack sizes, you're likely just setting money on fire, imo. With much bigger stacks behind, there's more argument for setting up difficult-to-play-against double barrel spots.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Stopped reading here.

Keep preaching that nittery gg!

Would rather check in this game because you have to make a hand 5 ways and your plan should not be to barrel someone off Qx. Checking also will allow you to fold, call, raise flop more effectively once the other 4 do their thing. Another benefit to checking here is that your nut turn cards improve your opponent(s) often enough where stacks will get in on the turn even after you check the nuts on that street.

Folding pre means you are woefully capped. You also never get in a cool spot like this which to me is a dream. You're more likely to just get stacked w QQKK 5 ways instead.

I mean, I used to think JTs in EP was a profitable hand. I just highly doubt it is now, especially with smallish stacks in a highly raked game with very few complete dolts at the table. I won't crap all over someone who wants to play it (it's probably borderline), but in these spots I think an open limp is much better than a raise at typical loose preflop tables.

GbutothersarefreetodisagreeG

I think it's reasonable to just always fold this as part of a reasonable (your) strategy, but limping it remains absolutely terrible.

Most 1/3 games have a $500 cap. OP has a $500 stack. It’s reasonable to conclude there are other $500+ stacks on the table, so why do you continually tailor advice to your unicorn $300 max game where people call $25-50 raises preflop but then don’t stack off without the nuts.

Ignoring whether it’s +EV or -EV for a moment. If playing a hand that is 0EV (or a loss leader) improves the overall EV of your range in that position than you should be adding that hand to your range. JTs is the nut speculative hand to balance your strong EP range.

Unless any of us are actually tracking exactly how JTs is doing for us in EP, none of us exactly know the answer of whether it is profitable at the typical table you're playing at. I'm guessing it was profitable at my typical table conditions at one time, but now I'm guessing it isn't in my typical table conditions today. I could be wrong.

GyoucandowhateveryouwantG

I don't understand. What about your table conditions have changed? If it's that your opponents don't pay off as much, then that means you can start bluffing them more. JTs (and all the suited broadways) are great bluffing hands since they flop so much equity. These hands are become super easy to double barrel and get your "non moron" opponents to fold marginal one pair hands.

If your opponents are stations and you can never get a bluff through, than table conditions haven't really changed and you are playing 2008 poker. So which is it?

The reason why limping is the best strategy for you is because you never turn your hand into a bluff and passively check your draws.

You are leaving money on the table if you have fold equity post flop but you decline to use it.

You are a little too hard headed about opening up your game imo.

^^^^

I hear this argument all the time, and yet this hand is a perfect example of why it falls flat.

We only have about a ~PSB left for the turn. So long as the turn ain't a hugely scary scare card, we're going to have trouble shaking TP. So our double barrels for stacks aren't always going to work out too great. Yeah, that'll work out great when we actually flop a great hand and want TP to call it off; but how often are planning on flopping a great hand?

If we flop anything at all, we're mostly going to flop TP. How is TPmehK going to work out for us overall in a SPR ~4 pot 5ways OOP in a raised pot? (it's a little unclear in the OP exactly how deep we are but I get the feeling given the description that we're not exactly deep with a bunch of the table)

And I love people who just want to barrel here, and so do all of the opponents who called with their speculative hand preflop. Yeah, if we barrel we'll take down more than our fair share of smaller pots when no one has much. But we'll also punt off our stack a huge amount of the time too by barrelling into the ~nuts (and there's a decent chance one of our opponents in position can easily be sitting with those types of hands this multiway).

And even flopping a good draw isn't necessarily easily +EV. Here we flopped about as good as we're going to flop, and yet if we donk and get raised huge we likely don't even have a profitable call (mostly thanks to hardly any stacks being left behind which is all due to preflop).

Basically, a raise here against a lotta people with <= 100bb stacks sets up an SPR ~4 pot OOP to multiple opponents. This is horrible for our weak TP hands. This is horrible for our drawing hands (where the bulk of the money will be in preflop/flop leaving very little behind for the turn/river when we actually hit). This is horrible when we're against TP hands, who are much more likely to feel committed (which is only good in the rare times we outflop them). If we were all much much deeper there would be far more argument for raising, as the high resulting SPR allows us to (a) play poker with our weak TP hands over multiple streets to figure out what is going on, (b) leave a bunch of stacks left in play for when we hit our hand on later streets to get paid off with and (c) allow us to really have a threatening double barrel bet on the turn.

FWIW, I'm reading "I didn't get a good look at stacks but I think most people have at least $250" as we're most likely playing fairly shortish with most people. If your read of that is that we're $500 deep with most, then ok, whatever.

GbutyoucandowhatyouwantG

GG,

It would be a huge improvement in your game if you never used the term "SPR" or thought about it while playing every again.

SPR isnt even that important in the majority of hands. You are obsessed with it.

Gg

What I find funny. Is the book that you use as SPR baseline, also has other features in it. Haven't read it in few years. But I don't recall it tackling live poker much. It was based on 6max online.

And limping was frowned upon if I recall. Also a lot of that material has been found to be outdated and no longer applicable.

Example, 2 guys I play with regularly still talk about commitment threshold. Once they put in certain amount of there stack. They are never folding. Not only are they not applying the theory correctly, it is super exploitable.

Limping is profitable, so folding is ridiculous, limp or raise pre imo

it doesn't matter what you do on the flop, i think betting is better because we fold out 9x and we get raised very infrequently on this texture, the hand won't start til the turn

I think a jam here is fine but sometimes just checking the flop and peeling your odds is fine depending on reads, a lot of the turn has to do with your image but i think just jamming the turn is going to show a profit, we have 20% equity when called and they only need to fold around 40ish pct to make it profitable, but like i said, it's about reads and your image. if you don't think you can get it thru just check and peel your direct odds, but i definitely think jamming the turn is long term profit