Note that everyone else has folded to the Villains flop bet, which only leaves me and the SB to act again behind me. So at this point, it's virtually HU. FWIW, if villain bet and got any action (maybe even as little as a single call) I'd seriously consider folding the flop outright.

I'm trying to find out right now whether I have the best hand, for a relatively cheap price of $75. My thinking being that I'd rather drag this big pot now ( admittedly giving up value vs higher pairs which will fold and not continue to bluff) rather than costing me an arm and a leg to eventually find out I have a really good 2nd best hand (or perhaps even worse, folding the best hand in a large pot to a river bet).

Call the flop.

You have equity in a big pot. Raising to throw your hand away can't be good here. If you can see both the turn and river - and you know your opponent has exactly Ax(x higher than 9) - you are 12% to win and 8% to tie.

As played shove the turn!

RE Villain overshoving with an A being awful: It's a nine-way pot. Even though there is only one A out there, if someone has it, there paying off (well, I'm not, but everyone else is). Very few other hands are continuing (other than a flush draw) are continuing. I think Villain overshoving would be fine with an A.

RE high Ax vs low Ax: You said we should be excited about getting all the chips in on the flop cuz if he has an A (realistically the only hand that is getting all the chips on the flop, apart from an overenthusiastic flush draw or a ******ed pair) because there are about as many Aces smaller than mine as bigger. I don't believe a typical player (although this player is fairly unknown) is raising a small A here preflop. If he has an A, it's bigger than mine.

RE not stacking off on trips because we're nine handed: I didn't mean this as an excuse to play ATC preflop (although I still stand behind the belief that no one here would consider folding preflop to be the proper move). What I meant is that in a nineway pot we need a better hand than usual to win; trip Aces with a meh kicker ain't necessarily that hand. FWIW, if I had trip nines here I wouldn't even consider not stacking off (at least to 100 BB stacks).

RE having JJ-99 in his range: I'll admit, his calling of the flop raise and eventual folding on the river seems to suggest this is perhaps the type of hand he had. However, I think most villains, in a 9way pot, will fold JJ-99 here to a raise. I also think that absolutely none of them will ship vs that raise.

We seem to be going a little in circles, but that's fine. Thanks for the contribution.

Is your plan then to call off our stack over 3 postflop streets?

I was considering betting the turn but figured no worse hands are calling (although obviously a worse hand called the flop, so I've already been wrong once). I figured a check here might get one more reasonable bet payed off on the river when the villain realizes his whole stack isn't at stake (unlike a turn bet).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Folding pre is ******ed.

Flop is a mandatory raise for value given the table dynamic: tons of weaker A's and flush draws are continuing. Betsizing has me inclined to believe villain's range is HEAVILY weighted towards these two possibilities.

Turn is your call, but checking behind hoping he does something ******ed on the river is probably best for value.

River bet is obv fine, sorry he had air.

Almost everyone else has folded, apart from SB (who has already checked the flop) and preflop raiser. Am I really targetting that many hands for value with a raise? I still don't think my raise is for value (although it turns out I was wrong). Villain's betsize to me is "crap, not the flop I wanted to see with KK-TT" or "Ya, exactly the flop I wanted to see with my big Ax", although I guess a flush draw is possible too.

You described the table as being "great" and "full of morons". To me, that means given the action and board texture villain's range consists on an assload of weaker A's and FDs that continue to a flop raise. Sure, he may be just that bad that he takes this line with a hand that beats you, and he may not be quite as bad as you're saying and he can actually fold some of his range that you crush. But I'd say the chances of either of those two scenarios are highly unlikely relative to the scenario in which the villain continues to dump his money into the pot with an inferior holding.

Besides, you won the pot. The villain is clearly very bad and you got about as much value as you could from this hand. I think in this particular scenario looking at your line ex post as being for value is not being results oriented, but rather is a manifestation of simply making the correct play given the spot.

We are way ahead of a range like AKo AJs+ (hearts is all that's left) and 99+ There would seem to be few flush draws in his range. We have a lot of information. He likely has 99+ or a better A. There are one combo each of AJ, AQ suited and 4 combos of AK. We are bet/folding for value against all the hands we are ahead of in his range.

The problem sometimes of course with the RR is you are folding out some KK and QQ and a lot of JJ TT and 99 hands that might bet the turn and hell even check/call call a river value bet if they are non believers. We are ahead of his flop betting range. Won't a call call line and bet when checked to be the most profitable most of the time? ... depends on Villain I know and feels "icky" when we do it.

We have 3 outs to boat up and some chop outs if if he has us beat... he has 2 outs to boat up if we have him beat (ie he has a PP).

Whether we can just fold to a Bet Bet Bet line OTR is villain depentant IMO. But I guess I would ask what info does a minraise get that a flop call doesn't from most villains?

When you call on this board it looks strong or you are drawing. If he has an A you are beat almost always. If he has a PP most villains will be afraid make strong "hand protecting" bets with the A on board but at the same time may feel "it's less likley he has an Ace since there are two on board". So if villian has say QQ he will either check fold the turn or bet again. If he bets again it is often going to be a weak looking bet .... or LOL "samebet".

This villains Preflop raising range from the BB that includes all these dominated aces and flush draws would look like what exactly?

Don't get me wrong I'm cool with raising for value if we think villain will call us with under pairs.

edit/ So having read the spoiler it demonstrates how betting for info and thinking we are betting for info is whack so much of the time. None of the info garnered gave you the right idea about villians hand except his check OTT but the hand worked out.

Ok hold on a sec, is BB the villain in this hand? If so I TOTALLY misread the OP--for some reason I thought the SB who l/c pre was the villain. That definitely changes things significantly. In that case you are definitely never getting value from worse since there isn't much if anything worse in villain's pre-flop raising range that you beat that will also pay you off. In that case you're probably better off just flatting the flop and reevaluating the later action, praying he continues to spew with underpairs. I doubt you're getting more than a street of value regardless of what comes on the turn. And please disregard any posts I've made earlier in the thread

And I agree with your little part about raising for info being bad. For that play to work we need to be under the assumption that villain will actually react rationally to our raise, an assumption which is (clearly) not true. More reason to never, ever raise for that purpose.

ITT we learn that villains give us value when they should be giving us informations.

Ha! The information I got was wrong, and the value unintended! Lol.

Totally agree that we're unlikely to get value from worse hands by raising the flop.

However, what's your turn/river plan? You call the flop; pot is now $205, villain has $250 and bets say upwards of 1/2 the pot on the turn (fair enough?). Now what?

Why are you calling everyone a moron? That seems a little disrespectful. It may be a slight leak in your metagame as well. If that's how strongly you feel, I truly believe it will translate to your interaction with the rest of the people at the table, and at some level they may actually play better against you.

On the flop you were basically value betting in retrospect. You received information that maybe the value bet was good, and maybe it was not. So you really got no information on the flop. I personally think we should assume we are ahead and then value bet the turn. Sure it can put you in an ugly place, but the more passive approach is just that, passive. And that's why I would try to get more value.

The way I value information is when it can be used to make more money in the future. I don't see how your flop bet helped do that so in this case I don't see the bet as being useful for gaining relevant information.

The V bet ~25% pot OTF ... why do you think he will bet at least 1/2 pot OTT?

Flop:
You raised to see where you are at. This is not a reason to raise whatsoever and you should remove it completely from your thinking. Raise here only if you believe it's for value as you aren't going to use trip aces as a bluff.

Since there are flush potentials out there and weaker Aces a raise here is fine. If you want to manage the pot size you can check here but I think you are losing way to much value.

Turn:
He checks you check.

I would raise this turn as you could get value from a slew of worse hands that have equity against you. Him checking here rules out (well I know the game you play so not entirely) big Ace hands so the only hands going to call here that have you beat are AJ and AT.

Over all I think a check from you is bad here, very bad.

River:

Obv play so I won't bother.

I read his small bet as either a weak hand (i.e. big pair) or draw or a monster (big A fishing to see if there is potentially someone out there that has the other A and will pay him off). You're right though, it's definitely possible he slows down or bets small on the turn.

I'm guessing you didn't see I have a fullhouse on the turn? Still bad?

Oh I thought fullhouse was on river, didn't pay enough attention sorry at work.

His flop bet is super weak IMO. There is a flush draw on board with 47 people in the hand he is not charging them like at all. There is no likely full house other than 55 or A5 both of which seem highly unlikely. In general seeing this small bet OOP I would be expecting him to check to me OTT a LOT of the time at which time I would be planning to bet for value hoping he thinks "damn I just gave up initiative and now GG is trying to steal this pot... I call".

Well once the 5 pairs on the turn I assume you're never folding. If villain checks I check behind and hope to either spike a 9 or hope villain tries maybe one last desperation spew bluff on the river. If he bets I flat. TBH unless villain is worse than either you or I can imagine I just can't envision a scenario in which you make any additional money beyond what's already in the pot, assuming you don't chop.I'd be happy just to get to showdown and expect to chop up the others' dead money like 95% of the time

If I am understanding you correctly, you have found yourself in a situation where you have a medeocre A in a multi way originally limped pot. Then an obvious call of a small raise bloats the pot, but you still want to play it intelligently as to not get yourself stacked with it needlessly.

You are asking what is the plan if you decide to just call on the flop and a blank hits. Obviously it's a no brainer with the FH on the turn, but with a blank, now what?

Some people seem to be advocating a commitment OTF with the strength of this holding....

If there is some sort of definitive mathamatical/range consideration/pot size calculation, for this situation, I'd love to hear it.

As is, it seems to me like reads and judgement calls in the moment have to sway a decision like this one.

If you decide that you have enough of a hand to commit against this opponent, then the play is easy enough.... but you have decided for yourself that you aren't committed, what to do now?

The options seem to be raise for value against his range, and assume that any further betting would too strongly mean you are beat and would cause you to fold. Or call..... Ok, what are the ramifications of calling. What is he thinking if we just call? Doesn't our call look scary to a hand we beat? Can he fire a large barrel if we have him beat? If he bets large, and it looks like we will be committed for all the chips, I guess that would be the time to fold, as you have already decided to not be committed. If he bets small, I think a call or a raise would be in order.

Anyway, tough situation, and I think if you want to get away from the hand you have to imagine how this particular opponent might respond to either line and use the one that would most accurately/cheaply get you the information that you are looking for.

Grunch.

Horibble

Just think how tough your decision would be if villain pops $75-$85 OTF!

My point is I don't like taking away our chance, however slim it may be, of spiking a 9 or a 5 OTT. When you figure your implied odds when a 9 peels plus your chop with a 5 plus the slim chance you are ahead - call. I am going to discount entirely the chance that SB or BB have a flush draw because it is just unlikely.

Now comes the words nobody likes to hear... After you call the flop you will have to "play poker" OTT.

P.S. I shove the turn just because we are not folding the river no matter what card comes right?

*Grunch
U are raising for value vs worse hands that could call (Ax) and u are charging draws. Your raise gives everyone slightly better than 3-1 to see the turn(incorrect for FD) and slightly better to the PFR. Doesn't look like villain has it here, I'm giving him 2p or FD.

Why isn't it likely they have flush draws? I think it's 100% there is at least 1 flush draw unless there are more aces in the deck we don't know about.

Also why shove the turn, that won't get a worse hand to call.