I'm pretty sure I botched this hand interested in input
hero has tight image and it's not too difficult to run over the table, very much fit or fold poker for most players

limp by fish (75bb)
limp by fish (100bb)
Hero is on the button with A6o
Hero raises to 7bb
SB calls
BB calls, hes a decent reg who's LAG who we have seen bluff and hero call
both limpers call

hero feels sadness

Flop
A79ccd
checks around to hero
Hero????

Why do people insist on list stacks in bb’s and bets in dollars? I don’t get it....

A6o is garbage, raising is bad. AP I guess check, play a small pot, try to get to SD and fold to any aggression.

both fish are easy money post flop but your right its probably too wide. in my defense I had also folded like 15 hands in a row and I felt like it would help my image a bit as well and sometimes work.

I think 7bb it's too small tho 8.5 may be better

In the future, omit results. My default line would be to x behind flop, bet most turns and rivers. Given the action, I’d call turn and river because our hand is underrepped and V could easily bet a draw or smaller pair here. The problem is because you put the results, it’s hard to believe that my response isn’t tainted by them even if I told you I wrote that first.

Oh, also just post dollar values, no need to put it in BBs and please don’t go between them.

now that I think about it I like using smaller aces to punish limpers in spots like this. They are likely raising A9+ so were very unlikely to be dominated and A pair is likely good.

"Fish" don't like to fold preflop and the result of 5ways to the flop after 2 limpers is completely standard at my table. Which is why I fold preflop and don't get out-of-line here.

I guess it's possible we have the best hand on the flop so I probably mostly just bet small (like $35 into $100) and then I'm probably done with the hand after that.

ETA: I think mostly we've gotten ourselves into a very tough spot postflop. The turn call is understandable (an aggro player is betting and we're getting decent odds and we could even still have the best hand) but also very meh at the same time (the guy is betting into the world, we still have half the world behind us to react, our draw could be no good / dirty / have horrible RIO while having no IO). And river spot is gross too as obviously this guy could be attempting to steal the pot with a busted draw. In the end, this "fish" just stole a huge pot off of us so well done by him; we should adjust our preflop thinking, imo.

Gavoidstupidspots,imoG

This is the LOL post i’ve read in a long time. You have no idea what you’re doing. This game isn’t a dick showing contest. I nearly fell over laughing when I read ‘pumish limpers’ - you checked back the flop, called a small to medium bet on the turn and folded the river. WTF are you talking about? You’re playing a spazzy loose-passive style that is sure to be abused by everyone. Based on your ‘punish limpers’ bravado you probably think you’re a LAG wizard who can’t figure out why the fish keep winning (****ing variance, am I right?). This whole hand is a train wreck. Really bad. It’s good you’re posting it for advice but if you’re trying to prove how bad V played, that monkey completely owned you.

It’s tough in the real world. Even fish don’t happily get eaten. You have to be honest with yourself if you’re going to survive.

Yeah, Twitch more-or-less summed up what I was attempting to state with my more diplomatic "we should adjust our preflop thinking", imo.

Gnotpilingon,justsayin'G

jesus christ

i feel like your having a pretty rough day, but it also feels like your totally misunderstanding what i meant so ill try and clarify

im raising pre because A6o is considrably better than what the fish have in this spot, im in position and they play bad post flop. The goal is to get a call from 1 of the fish, or pick up the limps. When we get 4 callers, the entire plan is over. im no longer trying to attack a multiway pot to take 4 people down at once, lke you said. Im calling turn because i have a straight draw and an underrepped ace, the call is absolutely standard. BB has big aces in his range on river so fold also is correct.

if anything in this hand is making you fall out of your char you have no idea what your doing. You can argue that punishing limpers with a6o is a bit too wide, but with A6s its manditory and same with a hand like A9o. nothing about this hand should be too surprising

Please relax

My guess is OP is an online player. This will not work in live games. I see obvious online guys play like this in live games and get killed day in and day out.

Live players limp big aces all the time. Raising things like A6 and A9 trying to isolate limpers is suicide.

twitch, please post constructively.

Sam, Live limpers are not raising A9+ thus giving you a range advantage. I encountered the SB overlimping with AJs yesterday when I was in the BB.

i am primarily an online player but recently moved to a region with lots of live games

Assuming your IP on the button what sort of hands are you raising against early position limpers? it feels criminal to not open up and raise wide.

You have to realize how LP these guys are. The are not limp/folding basically ever, and they are not folding to c-bets anywhere near as much as online players do. You should only bet for value almost all of the time.

I would usually open A9s+,ATo+,KQs,88+ as a default. Smaller broadways, A6s-A8s and PPs I'd usually overlimp, though sometimes raise. A2s-A5s and 66-77 I'd raise a bit more, but still overlimp them often.

I'll try tightening up my raising range a bit. I'm still not convinced this move wouldn't be profitable with a hand like A9o.

To be clear I'm never doing this from middle position with a hand like A6o. but it's possible even with position A6o is considerably too wide, I'll try making this play with a tighter range.

I'm still confident I could navigate this postflop profitably pretty easily against 1-2 passive fish who limped/called in position, but with blinds behind too its possible I should just wait for something better.
against 1-2 passive fish my plan is something like:


Dry boards I'm continuing small and they are likely folding. if they call, and overcards come on the turn I'm continuing again a bit larger

ace high boards I'm checking behind. calling turn or betting if they check to me

if they raise my I'm folding pretty much anything less than trips

Huh? Many of the older fish I know love to limp call with aces up to and including AK.

Consequently, I hate the PF call, since weak players are rarely limp-folding Ax.

Pre is terrible but river is a begrudginly snap ap, esp with 6 blocker and esp if u have no blockers to clubs...

I may have went too far earlier in the tread. Apologies.

i spoke to a pretty good player about river and he convinced me its a fold for the following reasons

essentially because villian just flatted our PFR without limping before hand, he has AT-AQ suited and offsuit in his range, which is 24 combos including the blocked ace, which all play this way (call pre, check to PFR, bet turn and river) , as well as 78s 89s and 79s which are 2 par (if hes playing 35s hes playing 79s). This is another 12 combos, and 9 sets for a total of 43 value combos.

even if we assume hes bluffing with all his busted club draws, and he played every suited one gapper and suited connector, theres actually not many combos that make sense here, only 23c-45c, which is 3, and 24c-57c, which brings us to 8 combos, and a few upper combos like JTc JQc QKc JCc KTc which bring us to 12 combos. Essentally there are only 12 possible busted flush draws in his range which are not beating us.

we need 29/90 based on river sizing so he needs to be bluffing 33% of the time
12/55 = 21.8%

hes potentially making this bluff with some 6 and T hands with a straght draw so odds may not be this bad, but theres just too many combos of Ax that are beating us here to justify the call.

essentially he would need to be running this bluff with a number of combos that are not busted flush draws or straight draws. He bet into 4 people on the turn so pure bluffs don't really make sense.

Furthermore, our hh vs this dude is small. We are nearly 100% sure he is playing AT-AQ this way, but not 100% hes playing 24c this way or even playing the hand in the first place. This further discounts his bluffing range and makes folding, in that moment, more inciting. We need to be absolutely certain hes bluffing every missed flush draw to make this spot callable, and theres no way i could know that at the time, and i don't even know that now.

its important to not be results oriented, this is a fold.

Even if we are sure hes semi bluffing all his straight and flush draws, calling loses us about 7bb

he could also have A2s here, but A3s to A5s don't make sense because he would check river. This makes things even worse

If he is also playing suited aces between A6s and A9s calling becomes an EV disaster

I didnt look at results before thinking snap snap call. I wouldn't even think twice about it. Yeah, I'd begrudgingly call bc he has a ton of value here but I'd never fold here vs a LAG. Folding 100% of your range vs a river bet, esp vs a LAG and when you have the nut best bluffcatcher, most likely isnt part of a sound strategy.

if your friend is saying you need 32% equity to breakeven on a call here, you should be seriously questioning whether you should be listening to him because you don't. it's approximately 24%, so he needs to be bluffing 1 in 4 times for you to profit here.

quick rule: if V bets pot otr, you need to win 1 in 3 times. so if he's betting less than half pot, you need to win way less.

your right i messed up the pot odds, forgot to count villian winning our bet back
24.3% is correct.
the reason its fine to most of our range to the river bet is because he bet into 4 people on the turn, meaning we know he is never bluffing turn. He, at the very worst, has a flush or straight draw, and more often than not has an ace and is betting for value. We're calling turn because we have odds to call even if we win only with a hand like 88 when the river bricks. He could also shut down on the river because he has a hand like A5s that he wants to show down.

we also just can't know that hes playing all suited 1 gappers, and bluffing litterally every draw on the turn and river which is whats required to bring this to break even. (the range above only led to 21%) Theres a ton of players all over low stakes live who don't play a large number of these hands or in this way and we simply can't make this read based on 45 hands and a single bluff

its not a tarribad call and its not spew, but i think the optimal line agaisnst a relatively known lag is clearly a fold, and even knowing his range and being generous it absolutely doesn't seem profitable at all

like IF he is playing all suited one gappers AND he bluffs with every single missed straight and flush draw AND he's not playing A6s to A9s then if we make the call we earn like 2bb on average. and if any of those conditions are not met, we're losing like 5 to 15.

Mike beat me to it on this one. A6 off in live 1-2 is a problem hand. OP, you will see what we are talking about soon enough. AT, AJ, and even AQ are limp called enough to where its no longer a surprise when turned over.

A friendly tip also: referring to players as "Fish" in hand breakdown is not a good look imo. Especially when you then post hand that was misplayed at all critical parts of the hand. Ive learned the hard way playing live for a very long time that having an ego is a viable trait at a poker table, but when ego clouds judgement it can be devastating.

GL

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I am not the preflop police so A6o for a raise....meh, whatevs. I think there is merit to it in some games, but not very many. That being said, if you are going to raise it pre, then I have no idea why you aren't betting this flop. It is uber wet with both str8 and flush draws so giving a free card seems insane to me. And if you get called in one or two spots, then ok, you get to evaluate the turn. Point being, you put yourself in a difficult river spot BECAUSE you checked the flop which made V's more likely to bluff since they figured you didn't have an Ace.

Just bet the flop when IP here. You can always punt later if someone shows a ton of aggro, and it will avoid you having to make more difficult river decisions for larger $ amounts.