HERO/BTN(300) young white new to table

V/CO(300) MAWG, drinking. overvalues hands in several aspects, went b/b with Q9 on AQ5dd flop and 9 turn and c/f Xd river. also went b/b/c-c on T82 9 K and mucked river.

4 limps by rec players
HERO 20 97
3 calls

FLOP(80) 852

2 limpys check
V leads 40
HERO calls
rest fold

HU
TURN(160) J

V bets 75
HERO calls

HU
RIV(310) 2

V looks at hero for a moment and checks
HERO?

Thoughts on bluff raising flop/turn?

Thoughts on preflop ISO IP

more pre or overlimp
raise/gii otf

I think the raise is alright if limpers are limp/folders and/or fit n´folder post flop. If not it´s a total spew.

Flop: Calling is ok I guess since it´s 4 way. I would tend to raise here myself since we have position on V and can rep an overpair. Do we not have a read on what a 1/2PSB donk bet means here?

Turn: Meh. Tempted to turn my hand into a semibluff here and shove depending on my image/what kind of hands I think V will fold.

River: Is V really going to fold a pair for $150 into a $450pot? I don´t think we can credibly rep an overpair or a J at this point. The described V would have bluffed the river with a missed draw. I surrender here. Against a nitty older player I would bluff here. I think we take it down far more than 33% of the time.

what the **** was mawg

You should raise either the flop or the turn. Raising always seems to scare these players more than a "normal" bet (ie, your fold equity is better, I think, for a raise vs a bet, even if you are putting in the same amount of $$). Also, you have pretty good equity basically no matter what V is holding.

Don't just passively call hoping to hit your draw: make villain make tough decisions (by raising), and give him a chance to make mistakes.

If youre gonna raise pre, raise bigger, like 27-30.

Really torn between raising and flatting flop. I'd default to flatting due to v over valuing hands.

We are never getting folds on the turn so I flat here with our gazillion outs.

I check back the river, our hand looks exactly like what it is, I don't think he's folding for less than a PSB. IMO if we cram it, he'll give it the ol' "shrug/**** it" call with A8 or whatever cheeseball he's holding on with.

I noticed V increased the size of his bet ott to ~1/2 pot just like otf. That's usually a sign of strength. In the hands you mentioned, was he increasing the size of the bets each street?

Would he increase the size of the bet with A8 ott despite the J coming? Often Recs slow up & bet the same size as otf.

The increase in the bet size makes me hesitant to raising ott, unless his betting pattern was the same on the hands he spewed. We also have a lotta' outs that could get paid otr, as I don't know he'd see what you had if you hit.

I think DeathCab's comments are spot on, although I can't say I am sure he'd call an all-in with A8....if that's what he has.

I am sure, however, that I would never put all of my money in on a bluff here. But that's just me. The guy is drinking.

Plus, you refer to him as a MAWG. Now I don't know what a MAWG is.......however, it sounds scary.

Raise the flop. Playing passively with draws vs live players is generally ok but only if there was a preflop raise. Since this pot is kinda shallow on initiative just go ahead and take it. Usually when players have something big on a wet flop that they want to protect they show you they mean it with a much larger bet. His half pot bet screams middle pair, and by playing into their line of thinking the raise signifies that you are in fact protecting a better hand. You did limp in afterall, so the story is credible that you have an 8 or better and dont like the draw either. Probably shoving all turns no matter what hits. This V just sounds more like a stubborn player and not some drooling station who is never folding. He overvalues his hands but only to a point.

MAWG=Middle Aged White Guy

You have alot of equity and fold equity on that flop. I think you could go with it and worth case scenario would be to gii otf. I range him to an 8 or maybe TT, 99. Worst case scenario some fd. It's not a pretty spot but I think he could fold alot of this range.

Sent from my SM-G920V using 2+2 Forums

I feel like this is a missed draw for him too. He thinks you have overpair and decided you wont fold.

So in that sense its worth a cheeky 110 bluff targetting only all his better air.

His line makes no sense with any value hands, given river ckeck on pairing.

The only value hand that you could see is 85 or something and he thinks he is now counterfeited. Most player freeze bc they dont know what to do now and check hoping for cheap showdown.

Other than that i suspect he won the pot on a high card

Pre is either limp or go bigger.

Flop we have a monster draw for 12 clean outs + possibly another 4 from our over card + we raised pre so we have an uncapped range. I'm raising here and shoving all turns if we don't get it in OTF. Let's not forget, we really only have 9 high, I want to end this pot asap.

I would definitely raise this flop, not only because we have a monster draw, but also because we have a RIO hand. Flatting keeps in better flush draws which is a disaster for us. Better to raise and price them out.

I would flat here with the nut flush draw for this same reason.

Why do we want to raise bigger per?

Discourage callers. Rather take it down pre than ever see a flop

Raise the flop and if necessary GII. On the turn, click back or fold.

Shove pre.

Not enough information to evaluate preflop, but I usually overlimp. Depends a lot on limped ranges/tendencies.

As played, bluff-raise $140 on the flop.

Raise flop; shove turn.

Preflop is a standard raise, but the sizing would be a bit small for me (typically 4x + 1/limper).

Shove the turn seems like far and away the best option. Raising the flop can't be bad, but people never fold on the flop, plus we have position. The turn is an overcard that gives us additional outs, plus the villain makes a pretty weak-looking bet. A shove is a natural raise size.

AP, I guess you have to shove. My only concern is that this line is often pot control with a weakish made hand, but he may have (hilariously) pot-committed himself with 66 and call a shove anyways. It's also possible this is a FD with some SDV, but the turn sizing seems a bit on the big side for that, maybe?

I just jam flop. I also say "I'm all in" just like the old intro song to High Stakes Poker on GSN.

For those of you who are advocating a flop raise: what range do you assign the villain and how much fold equity do you think we have?

I think you see a whole lot of 78 - J8, weird two pair like 85s / 52s, sets, some 67, some 99/TT, and some better flush draws. Obviously sets aren't folding nor is two pair. I think non-nut flush draws fold almost always as does any bare 8.

With as much equity as we should have on the flop we really don't need villain to fold that often for a shove to be profitable.

After 3 limpers I would only be raising value hands; there's just so little chance of us narrowing the field and thus we'll have no FE postflop and have to hit our speculative hand (so may as well overlimped for cheap, imo). The result (4ways) is not unexpected, right?

On the flop we have a flush draw and a gutshot and possibly an overcard that may be good, which is a pretty nuttish hand. Pot is already a huge $120 and we only have $280 left, so it's worth going after. Against pairs, we're about 50/50, but pairs are going to have a hard time calling a shove. So I'd shove.

As played on the turn, I don't think we have as much FE since this guy is still betting when an overcard comes, and we're getting good odds to call, so I'd probably just call and try to hit. ETA: But I don't hate a shove at all.

All the draws busted, so I would definitely not bluff the river.

GcluelessNLnoobG

IMO, the only point of a preflop raise is to thin the field, especially with a speculative hand, so that we have a chance at stealing the pot postflop when we whiff. In a multiway pot, we're just so rarely going to be able to steal the pot postflop as it is just too likely someone else has hit enough that they ain't gonna fold. So either raise a lot larger to setup this postflop steal, or simply overlimp and play hit-our-hand poker better than our opponents. At loose tables where multiple opponents are likely to call the preflop raise, then I'd always play hit-our-hand poker with speculative hands and never raise them.

GimoG