V ($600, BTN): Old reg guy. Flat called AKcc pre UTG2 vs my UTG open in a previous session, just called JT4cc flop and raised As turn. I folded AQo. Most relevant read to this hand.

H ($600, UTG2): Grinder type winning image. Not known to get out of line.

UTG raises $13, Hero 3bets to $40, V 4-bets to $100, UTG folds, Hero ?

What is our plan here with:

a) JJ or worse
b) QQ
c) KK
d) AA
e) AK

I'll probably only get it in here with KK+. If he flats AK to an UTG open, that he probably doesn't have it the 4-betting range, which means it's unlikely that he has QQ is his four betting range, or AK, which I guess means you can argue folding kings. But in general, I'm only going with KK+

OMC flats AK suited in a previous hand? Alarm bells going off in my head in this hand as this range is almost ALWAYS KK+ and never anything less at LLSNL.

This might be nitty but I'm set mining QQ- here, flatting AA and proceeding cautiously with KK. I'm flatting AA because 5-betting here will allow him to fold all of his narrow range (usually KK and the last combo of AA). 5 betting will basically announce to him we have aces and he might find a fold pre-flop with KK. Flatting AA will allow him to make a mistake post-flop as I would check all flops and expect a continuation bet 100% of the time on the flop from him with his overpair.

Folding AK pre, because if he really has QQ- he shuts down when an A or K high flop comes and we get no more value from QQ-. We might even be extremely dominated if he has AA or KK and if an A or K comes on the flop we're stuck in this spot with AK against a super narrow 4bet range. 5 betting AK is suicide against this type of player as we're committing ourselves when we 5bet and against a super narrow 4bet range, we are crushed when we 5bet here and he 6bet jams. The only hope we have is if he might fold KK to a 5bet fearing aces.

a), b), c) flat
d) Do you think this guy can maybe fold KK? I think flat and 5b to like 250 are both OK, not sure which is better
e) turbofold

Although it's going to hurt to do, you should probably just be setmining with KK here. He's far likelier to hold AA than anything else.

Also the setmine flats are thin but just about worth it. Folding would also be fine.

100% this. Even folding AKs and feeling good about it.

Personally I flat AA here, 5b looks way too strong and if we flat we can even stack JJ-KK on low boards (obv JJ highly discounted and QQ slightly discounted if he flatted AK).

Also first hand you should prob be x/cing flop most of the time, and ap you def need to x/c turn and not dbl barrel

JJ-KK are setmines too though.

This is something I've never understood. I thought this forum was a huge advocate of bet/folding. Plus this is HU where we should be cbetting most of the time. He has so many small pps. If the flop was 567 then yeah, but here we have a GS+2 overs.

If we check/call, our hand is so transparent as AK/AQ. I'd rather c/f OOP as A/Q outs maybe dirty as seen here.

Perhaps it seems transparent, but you would still like to be able to realize equity as often as possible on difficult boards and check calling allows you defend/realize your equity for that street 100% of the time (facing normal sizing that you elect to call/or facing a check) - and realize it at the right price.

Often you're going to be capped, but you will still have hands strong enough to check call so you don't get barreled to death just because of texture suited better for the wider IP range.

With JJ- or AK, you should never be in this spot because 3betting is catastrophic

Bet folding is just a max exploitative LLSNL tool used in spot where you have a high equity value bet against most of Vs calling range but super low/zero equity against the hands in there that they raise. It's not fundamentally sound poker as many would lead you to believe, but works very well against a lot of vanilla regs (and fish ldo) because they play their ranges so poorly.

Don't like x/c flop in first hand, you will end up giving pots away to underpairs. Also you need some hands to triple barrel to balance out sets/overpairs. Would be checking turn though.

I misread the hand like this at first too. The OMC villain is not UTG.

I would x'c with AcQx for sure, other combos fine to barrel or x/c imo. Yeah guess I was exaggerating when i said x/c most of the time. I probably bet without club, close between betting or x/cing with AxQc.

And we have zero incentive to be tripling to balance out sets/overpairs on this board texture vs live players, even players in general. It's -EV in a vacuum to triple against players that don't have a fold button. I very rarely triple barrel, and imo I think a lot of 3-barrels are spew. Also been there done that, lol. Toned down my triple barrels quite a bit.

To win, even in tough games, ime just value bet more bluff less. You don't necessarily have to have a bluffing range on a river spot if your opponents assign bluffs in your range, which they always do unless you're a super nit running 6/5. I.e. JTxcc two low bricks on turn & river. Hypothetically, you could never bluff rivers with KQ/clubs/AQ, and yet they'd be assigned in your river betting range. You could just only bet your value hands with impunity and not get exploited.

Yeah, I mean I don't triple a lot, but I think raising UTG is a good time to throw some in. I think they do have a place even in LLSNL because people draw to hands pretty loosely. One way to deal with that is to do what you suggest and tone down your bluff and semibluff cbets. I do that in some spots as well, but heads up, OOP, with a nut gutshot + overcards and having raised UTG, I think the situation lends itself more to barreling.

Not saying I would necessarily pull the trigger on a triple in that hand (depends on live reads, the exact turn and river cards, etc) but it's worth noting that on blank turn/river it would have worked out great One consequence of facing passive opponents is that their flop/turn calling range contains some huge draws which they will fold on the river when they miss.

If we're treating KK as a setmine, isn't any pair a setmine?

Also, we're snapfolding to any cbet on any board that doesn't contain a K when we have KK?

Yep. And yep. This guy's cold 4betting range pre if you have KK consists entirely of AA and very occasionally the other two kings.

I fold everything but AA (we don't have enough to setmine). ETA: Looks like we're only getting 10:1 to setmine, which isn't enough when you factor in the times we outflop him and he hits his 2 outer / runner runner later (which he will 8%+ of the time) + sets over sets us, imo.

Doesn't matter what we do when we have AA cuz we're chopping. Actually, the best plan is to probably flat with AA and then shove (or check/raise) any flop (especially ones with a facecard on it) and hope he folds his half of the chop.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Start by not 3betting JJ and sometimes even QQ/AK vs an utg open.

V is opening a lot with a wide range, doesn't fold to 3b, doesn't 4b either and plays fishy post. Don't want it going eleventeen ways with any of those hands, do we? Why not just take it HU?

So GG, you think a guy who flats AK is incapable of cold 4betting QQ pre? Are you really throwing away KK here?

Not only did he flat AKs preflop, but he also flopped the nutter butters (two overs + gutshot + nut flush draw) and just called the flop cbet (although to be perfectly honest I don't hate either play against tight EP raise and a cbet). But still, doesn't strike me as aggro.

I don't know how everyone elses game plays, but we saw an UTG raise, a 3bet by a guy not getting out-of-line, and then *this* guy 4bet. It's AA and nothing else, because the 3better could have KK (so he can't 4bet anything other than AA).

ETA: I've only thrown away KK twice preflop in upwards of ~3500 hours, so obviously it's not something I do very often. But about a month ago I saw this *exact* same situation. The 3better ended up having KK, and eventually got it in on the flop vs AA. And I thought to myself, "such a trivial fold preflop".

Gdon'tlevelyourselfintothinkingpeoplearen'tplaying theirhandfaceupG

old regs don't cold 4bet UTG and UTG+1 raises with a wide range. I mean, I suck at folding so I'd probably call all pears and muck all unpeared hands.

2nd easiest fold of KK in history.

The only easier one would be if V limp-cold-4bet.