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1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove 1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove

04-21-2011 , 12:15 AM
Villain A: $80, very LAG, calls light, known to bluff, played at a table with him and moved to the same one with him once the previous table split up

Villain B: $260ish, no reads, went all in on turn with two pair and got called by fish with just top pair, so seemed at least competent

Me: $300, TAG for the most part

Pick up AA UTG+2 7 or 8 handed. Raise to $12.
Villains A, B plus some other guy calls.

Flop comes K35 rainbow
Villain B is in SB and checks, I bet $30, Villain A shoves all in for another $32, Villain B cold calls $62.

Here, I just decide to call because if I 4bet shove, not sure I'm getting called by worse, plus I don't have a prime read on this opponent in particular.

Turn comes a J of hearts.
Villain B shoves all in for $191.

Common knowledge would say that a K would check back looking for a cheap showdown against someone who raised UTG+2, bet into 4 people. Thus, I figured he had to have me beat here, maybe 33,55 or KJ, all of which are within his range.

Thoughts?

Spoiler:
I fold AA, Villain shows K10 and I pretty much vomit
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 01:17 AM
Re-jam the flop - while turbo fistpumping.

Sets are just not open jamming the turn. Nor is KJ. As played you call and make a note.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 01:25 AM
If we don't raise the flop (which I think is often find) then imo we are trying to get B to think his hand is ahead of us, and are trying to induce a play by him.
The J may have binked the 3 outter here, but our hand is vastly under-repped. I call and feel pretty good against his range even if I lose the hand.
If we are going to fold to anything other than a K on the turn, then we should have either folded on the flop or raised.
Our call induces worse hands to over play themselves here.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 07:58 PM
Flop call seems fine. Your rationale seems fine. You think he may fold Kx if we re raise the flop.

So going with your read - when he open shoves the turn, we have to be thinking fold. If you think your opponent is tight enough to not stack off with Kx on the flop. It should stand to reason that you do not think he would spazz out on the turn here (turning Kx into a bluff). So I don't see anything wrong with the fold. What I'm trying to point out is the importance between your reasoning for not wanting to re-raise the flop and how that SHOULD impact your turn decision.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 09:41 PM
Did the turn heart put a flush draw on the board?? Do you have the A hearts? If so, then absolutely not a snap fold

Raise more pre, you want to get 1-2 people in the pot

AP, I like the flop call to keep vill B in the hand.

Don't complicate things for yourself. Obv shorty is not a concern here. Against villB you have an SPR of 5. Given these stacks, your plan from the get go should be to get the stacks in. You can't put a villain on ONE hand. You have to give them a range, I still like our odds to stack off against villB range.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 10:55 PM
Didn't read spoiler:
Yeah, raise more preflop here.
Flop call is good move IMO.

You seem to have a contradictory view of villain. You say you think he's smart enough to realize your range is small cause you "raised from UTG +2 and bet into 4 people" but then you include KJ in his range. If he is smart he'd fold KJ preflop.

I agree with getting allin here, you've under repped your hand as others have noted.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupicola rupicola
Flop call seems fine. Your rationale seems fine. You think he may fold Kx if we re raise the flop.

So going with your read - when he open shoves the turn, we have to be thinking fold. If you think your opponent is tight enough to not stack off with Kx on the flop. It should stand to reason that you do not think he would spazz out on the turn here (turning Kx into a bluff). So I don't see anything wrong with the fold. What I'm trying to point out is the importance between your reasoning for not wanting to re-raise the flop and how that SHOULD impact your turn decision.
So not this.

Jamming AA on the flop here is unquestionably going to be +EV, so the only reason you should ever be flatting is because you think it will be MORE +EV. If you're calling with no plan, you need to be just getting it in on the flop.

If you call the flop it should not be because you're afraid of a set, but because you believe it will look weak and induce Villain to overvalue his Kx on the turn

Calling with the intention of folding on the turn if anything but a K hits is terrible in this spot. While it may be true that Villain will fold Kx on the flop if we jam (questionable given that he overcalled a bet and all-in with it in the first place), our hand it going to be under repped here and should induce action from a K, even if it doesn't improve on the turn.

I think flop is a pretty clear fistpump/shove, especially since you're capable of finding crazy reasons to hero fold AA underepped on the turn against an uknown.

If you're capable of flatting flop to under rep your hand and snap off Villain if he blows up like this, then I'm totally cool with that too.

Folding at any point is out of the question.... unless we have reads that Villain is some kind of uber nit.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 11:29 PM
Also... I feel like this is obvious but I suspect some of the advice must be ignoring this.

Everybody realizes there is $204 in the pot when it gets back to Hero and he has to put in another $32 to call, right? He should never be folding basically his entire range that can improve to beat a pair of kings on the turn.

Just calling here is going to make our range look super weak to most people (or maybe like KKK if Villain is a monsters-under-the-bed kinda person).
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark82880
Also... I feel like this is obvious but I suspect some of the advice must be ignoring this.

Everybody realizes there is $204 in the pot when it gets back to Hero and he has to put in another $32 to call, right? He should never be folding basically his entire range that can improve to beat a pair of kings on the turn.

Just calling here is going to make our range look super weak to most people (or maybe like KKK if Villain is a monsters-under-the-bed kinda person).
$234 in main pot
$191 in side pot and hero has to call $191
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote
04-21-2011 , 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by endodocdc
$234 in main pot
$191 in side pot and hero has to call $191
I was referring to the flop.

Hero's range, given the price, should be obscenely wide/weak when he calls the flop, and should absolutely expect to induce Villain to over value a TP hand going to the turn.
1/3-AA facing flop overcall, turn shove Quote

      
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