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1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. 1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn.

03-11-2011 , 02:13 PM
1/2 NL home game. Mostly a loose passive game, lots of straddles.

My image: the majority see me as very tight. A few of the players are playing with me for the 2nd or 3rd time, and I have been card dead the last few sessions, so I am not perceived as very active. So far tonight I have raised 4-5 times in the past 2-3 hours, and won each pot either pre or with a cbet, other than one where I made a hero call with A-high on the river (won that one as well). I have limped only a few times in LP, and limp called a small raise once with 4-4 and folded the flop.

Key villain: very, very loose. Generally doesn't like to fold pre once he limps, although a large enough open will get him off of most pure garbage (2-5o, etc). His limp call range is very wide, and generally you can expect him to call a raise with any paint that is connected (J-7+). He will raise 99+, AJ+ preflop like clockwork. Once he gets in a pot, he has a hard time letting go of any piece on the flop, although the last time we played he did fold to my second barrel a couple of times. He tends to donk bet when he hits a flop big on a wet board (2 pair+, maybe TPTK). If he check raises, he tends to always min-raise. His range on check raises tend to be lighter than when he donks a flop, more along the line of TPGK, maybe a pair and a gutshot.
I felted him in his last hand the last time we played when he shoved two pair into my nut flush on the turn. It was the only time I did not see him donk his two pair on the flop, and he let me draw to my nut flush for free. He has commented on that hand a couple of times, and I think it needs to be considered for how this hand plays.
He definitely sees me as nitty, and weights my preflop raises to QQ+ . He claims he folded kings on the flop to my limp raise, flop shove the last time we played, and was convinced I had aces.

Secondary villain: Not really important in the hand, but I want to practice writing out villain descriptions. Is generally a loose player, but nitted up the last time we played. Is back to his old tricks again, and doesn't like to fold once he has limped. Again, he tends to always raise AQ+, and will call OOP with suited garbage. Plays draws aggressively, and generally makes a habit of getting his money in bad. I have no problem getting into big pots with him if I have a combo draw, as I am often dominating his draw.

Secondary villain: MP, $100
Key Villain: HJ, $325+
Hero: CO, $325

Rest of the table: irrelevant. Button has me covered, but plays tight and respects my game. Will not call me light if he thinks I am isolating the fish. Most of the table is limp folding to a large raise pre.

UTG straddles for $4.
UTG +2 calls.
Secondary villain and key villain each call.

Hero: AJ
I am confident I am ahead of the limp range of all villains, and that the button, blinds, and both players UTG will likely fold. If secondary villain calls, key villain will also with a wider range.

Hero raises to $24. So far at this table, raises of $17+ were getting a lot of respect. I expect to take down the pot here a fair portion of the time, will likely not be getting more than 2 callers.

Folds around, both villains call.

Pot: $74 (minus vicious home game rake and high hand bonus)

Flop:
7910

Both villains check. Key villain toyed with his chips a bit, but did not bet. Secondary villain isn't looking overly interested in the pot.

Hero bets $40. I considered higher, but thought this was the correct size, and I am viewing this as a value play. I am fairly confident that neither villain is strong, although key villain may have a weak pair. If he min raises, I can still call with over $220 still behind. I also think it gives me a little more room to maneuver on the turn if I need to second barrel.

Secondary villain tanks, and folds.
Key villain calls.

Pot: roughly $150

Turn: 8

Key villain donks out $50 very quickly.

Hero???

I obviously do not think I am behind here, so I am looking for thoughts on how to get max value from this villain. I would weight his hand here towards two pair, maybe some kind of QX combos.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 02:32 PM
As a generalo rule you should bet more on coordinated flops,
and on this very coordinated flop you should def. bet betting
60$ at least.

On the turn i am def. raising. If he has a pair + draw type
you wont get any money out of him very often, and he might call your raise
with a pair + fd hand.
The other benifit is that he has Jx also quite often and you get maximum value from your freeroll.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 02:40 PM
How much are you raising?
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 02:52 PM
Since you have the Js he doesn't have a straight with a redraw. If he had any other J he is betting more here IMO so the freeroll is out. We have get some value from the 2p hands and draws that want to see the river. Flatting and hoping he bets or calls the river with an improved hand is out of the question since there are a number of action killers, a couple chop cards and cooler cards. I Raise to $150 and hope to commit villain here to call ~$110 all in on the river.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 02:56 PM
Raise to $125, to which he will be constitutionally unable to fold.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 02:57 PM
Any other thoughts about the size of the bet on the flop? I had my reasons for betting a little over half the pot, but I am open to other thoughts.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:01 PM
I probably also play preflop the same, although I doubt there's anything too wrong in limping too?

Nut flush draw, gutshot and two overcards; I'm willing to go to war on this flop. I think I shove if I get raised. I'm cool with the 1/2 pot valueish bet.

On turn, the pot is now $200 and villain has $210 behind. Lottsa scare cards could kill our action on the river, plus villain probably thinks we have AA here so his two pair or whatever is crushing us (at very least, it probably seems unlikely we have a straight). I shove. And being MUBSy, I certainly don't think it's impossible we're behind; but I don't think we can fold the second nuts here.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:15 PM
I am betting a little more on this flop just to set up easier value on future streets. Turn you have to raise here to get the money in ASAP I cant really think of a reason not to raise here unless you feel he can ONLY have QJ here which obv is not the case. you a free rolling vs villain pretty often here IMO.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymaps
I am betting a little more on this flop just to set up easier value on future streets. Turn you have to raise here to get the money in ASAP I cant really think of a reason not to raise here unless you feel he can ONLY have QJ here which obv is not the case. you a free rolling vs villain pretty often here IMO.
What I am really curious about is recommendations for the correct raise size, and why.
I wasn't even remotely worried about MUBS here (having the nut redraw probably helped).
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:24 PM
prob just shove you have only a little over a pot sized bet left after his donk bet, and these types of bad players usually aren't bet folding when they bet that amount (I know its small in relation to the pot but you know what I mean)
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:27 PM
Sure, we have second nuts now, but we also have seven outs to the immortal nuts. No need to be MUBSy.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymaps
prob just shove you have only a little over a pot sized bet left after his donk bet, and these types of bad players usually aren't bet folding when they bet that amount (I know its small in relation to the pot but you know what I mean)
My reasoning is I think villains find a fold to the shove on the turn (wow my last two stacks of reds) way more often than they will look ahead to the river and realize they are committing themselves when they call the smaller turn re-raise. On the river getting over 5:1 almost whatever card comes they think ("ah well I have so much in already... he might be bluffing... I call").
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo
My reasoning is I think villains find a fold to the shove on the turn (wow my last two stacks of reds) way more often than they will look ahead to the river and realize they are committing themselves when they call the smaller turn re-raise. On the river getting over 5:1 almost whatever card comes they think ("ah well I have so much in already... he might be bluffing... I call").
I guess, there a a bunch of cards that could kill our action on the river if villain has 2pair or something, meh I just don't feel this type of villain is folding very often then they take this line/betsizing, you cant really mess this hand up too bad though as long as you are putting more money in the pot.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo
My reasoning is I think villains find a fold to the shove on the turn (wow my last two stacks of reds) way more often than they will look ahead to the river and realize they are committing themselves when they call the smaller turn re-raise. On the river getting over 5:1 almost whatever card comes they think ("ah well I have so much in already... he might be bluffing... I call").
I see what your getting at here. I guess my reason to shove is that there is four-to-a-straight on board; any hand that is calling a min-raise type bet of ~$75 more on this board is probably also calling a shove of ~$200 more. So I kinda think either we get action or we don't, and I'd rather do that now before the scare cards come.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymaps
I guess, there a a bunch of cards that could kill our action on the river if villain has 2pair or something, meh I just don't feel this type of villain is folding very often then they take this line/betsizing, you cant really mess this hand up too bad though as long as you are putting more money in the pot.
That is what I was thinking as the hand played out.
Raising was the clear option - the optimal amount was the issue for me. I will post what I did and the results tomorrow, along with with what the villain sadi afterwards.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-11-2011 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I probably also play preflop the same, although I doubt there's anything too wrong in limping too?

Nut flush draw, gutshot and two overcards; I'm willing to go to war on this flop. I think I shove if I get raised. I'm cool with the 1/2 pot valueish bet.

On turn, the pot is now $200 and villain has $210 behind. Lottsa scare cards could kill our action on the river, plus villain probably thinks we have AA here so his two pair or whatever is crushing us (at very least, it probably seems unlikely we have a straight). I shove. And being MUBSy, I certainly don't think it's impossible we're behind; but I don't think we can fold the second nuts here.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Yeah a wierd spot with the stack sizes at this point.

I was leaning more towards the shove too but I just sense hands like QT AT call a smallish raise but fold to the shove. I def. don't hate a shove.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 11:52 AM
It hasn't been quite 24 hours, but I will post results as I will be tied up a little later today.

Villain donks out the $50 on the turn, I thought about it and shoved, he curses loudly and snap folds. He then says he knows I have an over pair, and he can't call because all he has is a pair and a gutshot now - he claims to have folded Q-8.
Another player at the table tells him I had to have had a jack in my hand, and he gets salty saying there is no way I would have a jack there, and that I had aces or kings.

I don't know if he calls any more than a minraise there, and I don't think I could have extracted more on the river.

I posted this hand to see what the thoughts were about bet sizing on the flop and turn, and I really appreciate the feedback I received. As someone said above, as long as we are putting chips in here, there was no really wrong way to play it.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 12:01 PM
Shove is good. Table chat implies villain is the type who is snapping with two pair+.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 12:50 PM
dont like flop, ott i was thinking min raise at first but i don't hate a shove

i think min raise would work better overall though
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 01:03 PM
as played shove the turn, too many coolers can come to scare hime off.

One other point, you mentioned double barrelling this villain before. If as you mentioned this villlain is hard to move off hands, then I would stick to value betting the hell out of them. Widen your value bet range and shrink your cbet and bluffing ranges. This hand you had more then enough equity, but be careful trying to bluff these players, making stupid calls is their strength.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by petzlgrigri
as played shove the turn, too many coolers can come to scare hime off.

One other point, you mentioned double barrelling this villain before. If as you mentioned this villlain is hard to move off hands, then I would stick to value betting the hell out of them. Widen your value bet range and shrink your cbet and bluffing ranges. This hand you had more then enough equity, but be careful trying to bluff these players, making stupid calls is their strength.
I wanted to keep the option open for the double barrel. He seems to give me more credit with my starting hands than I deserve, and I had been able to move him off of hands before. You are correct that I shouldn't make a habit of it with little/no equity, so I try to pick my spots with him.
He may be gunning for me a little after this hand, so your point is probably even more true now.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by papagavin
dont like flop, ott i was thinking min raise at first but i don't hate a shove

i think min raise would work better overall though
Explain. Too small of a bet I assume? I like the $40, but I am open to suggestions for why a bigger bet is better.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 01:34 PM
i sort of like a flop check, depends what their c/r sizing would be though
if they would make it ~110 and fold when we jam on them then 40 is perfect, if they would go pot sized for about a shove or any smaller amount that about commits them then id rather just check it back since it puts us to a bit of a tough decision where calling will be +ev but not as good as just drawing for free IP.

i dont see a flop bet getting through both of them on this board very often since everything has a piece, and a lot of hands that call flop won't be folding to more barrels.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by papagavin
i sort of like a flop check, depends what their c/r sizing would be though
if they would make it ~110 and fold when we jam on them then 40 is perfect, if they would go pot sized for about a shove or any smaller amount that about commits them then id rather just check it back since it puts us to a bit of a tough decision where calling will be +ev but not as good as just drawing for free IP.

i dont see a flop bet getting through both of them on this board very often since everything has a piece, and a lot of hands that call flop won't be folding to more barrels.
I chose 40 as a c/r from the bigger stack would most likely be a min raise to 40, which based on my read that his c/r range is weaker than his donk range, I would be comfortable shoving over. Thoughts?
Also, based on the secondary villain's reaction, I was fairly certain he was folding to any bet.
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote
03-12-2011 , 07:32 PM
Preflop: Against guys who will both call light preflop and get it in light postflop, I'd rather just limp with AJs even though you have position and likely the best hand. If you hit the flop big you can still still stack the awful players if you limp in, and you'll never have to worry about losing more than $4 when you airball the flop.

Flop: As played preflop, bet $50 and be willing to go further with the hand if raised... I'd overshove against the maniac if he 3bets and the other guy folds. You have a ton of equity here, to the point that you'll probably be a favorite if it gets all in versus the big fish.

Turn: This is the best card for you. When your opponent bets shove and hope he has an J and you're freerolling him with your flush draw. If he has a hand like 2 pair or a set even he will be afraid of the straight and won't be likely to give a smaller raise action anyway.

Just my opinion...
1/2NL: Thoughts on how to play the turn. Quote

      
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