I know the usual responses on this forum if you limp in UTG with KJo or KQo, or maybe even ATo. But is it too tight not to play these hands UTG @ 1/2 live?

It's not a matter of playing too tight, it's a matter of POSITION!

In a loose 1/2 game, you will lose a ton of $ limping in ATo, KJ-KQo UTG. I will play KQs, and ATs UTG if the table is passive enough that I can see a cheap flop. I'd rather limp 54s than KJo UTG if I had to choose between the two. You will just have no idea where you stand with one pair out of position.

If you are going to play, raise.

However, those hands are not in my full ring UTG range unless the table dynamic calls for it.

This is so situation dependent but I agree with the previous two posts.

Its not too tight to fold KJo or KQo, or maybe even ATo at 1/2 live.

If you have the mental fortitude and can play tight for 8 hours without having a brain explosion then its hard to go wrong playing extremely tight.

Also, stack sizes are important. With only 50bb effective stacks, you have little choice but to play tight - you just aren't going to hit the flop hard often enough to play a raised pot with for example small pocket pairs or medium/small suited connectors.

If stacks are medium (150bb) to deep (200bb), you're comfortable with the table and you want to open up your raising range then the cuttoff or the button are the places to do it after 2 limpers or less.

Concur. At a lot of these loose-passive games, you can be pretty sure you can OL safely and induce a hoard of overlimpers with speculative hands (small PP, suited connectors, etc.). Even if someone raises, there's usually the right expressed odds, and even more often implied odds to make the call.

With "real" hands, however, position becomes a real problem. Suppose you OL KJ, get a three overlimpers and then a lame raise to $6 that both blinds and all limpers call. Then flop comes J-high. What do you do? Value town yourself? C/c down? It's a pretty gross situation.

AT is awful. KJ is pretty bad. Bizarrely, as someone who plays almost exclusively live, KQ really doesn't fare all that badly.

I me some KQs. You can win so many big pots if you hit the right flop.

Unless your opponents are bad to the point of playing nearly any two cards, or at the least playing completely atrociously postflop, it will be difficult making money with these hands from early position.

At the same time, if you're decent to good, you might be able to break even or just be a marginal loser with these hands, and make more money with your better hands from EP (AA-QQ etc) when you get action from the more observant players, a concept known as shania if you want to search it on 2p2 or google-- but that's only applicable to people you have history / want to make history against.

Cant think of a time i open folded KQ from utg in a 1-2 game. I'm definatly not a fan of KJo or ATo from utg but if the table is short then I'll probably raise them or if their soooted.

Good feedback, guys. I'm folding these hands now, but see others playing them UTG, and I was just wondering if I was playing too tight in a low stakes live game.

Take this with a grain of salt as I am a position nit, but it is hard to be too tight from UTG/+1/+2. With the right table and image for me, I will open as low as A-10/KQ suited from early, but for the most part, staying out of pots from EP has been very +EV for me.
KJo/KQo and the like are typically automucks for me from UTG, while I would likely raise them from LP.

at a fullring live 1/2 utg I fold a lot of hands like At & kj. I'll usually open kq pretty early depending on the the table. I would much rather limp early with hands like small pocket pairs if the table isn't charging much pre to see a flop where you want a lot of players in the hand. I don't like limping w/ hands like at, kj, kq utg. Those hands don't hit the flop hard they usually win small pots and they play much better against a few opponents. I think AT and KJ is way too bad to play UTG at most 1/2 live games Folding those hands under the gun seems fine. I would much rather be raising those hands in later position uncontested.

UTG at a loose passive game, 100bb deep, raise AQ+ and all pairs. Continue betting with sets, top pair and overpairs. Open AJ from mp, AT, KQ from lp. Raise limpers with the same range from mp/lp.

Fold the rest.


When facing an openraise, if you cannot 3bet for value (ie be called by worse) you should fold or set mine if raise is less than about 5% of effective stacks.

This is ABC preflop poker and the foundation for achieving favourable postflop situations.

Fold Axs and SCs until you have good reads on your opponents.

Limping UTG with AT, KJ type hands is fine if and only if you are at a table that doesn't raise a lot pre.

The reason you "usually" don't limp with these types of hands is that the odds of a preflop raise is highest for you when you limp in EP but decreases as the number of players to your left decrease.

If you are at one of those tables where everyone likes to see a pot then limping is fine.

But if you are at a normal or aggro table, then yes, fold those type of hands.

Generally, for me to limp in EP with those sorts of hands, I need a loose passive table where there is lots of limping, everyone is deep 100BB+, and post flop villains are prone to give odds and call overbets despite an obvious draw hitting.

But all it takes is one or two decent players in position to screw that all up, so i'm very selective about when I do it. Need the proper table dynamics.

stack sizes? lol.

i would like to address OPs question, but there are too many 'it depends'.

in general, if the table is such that you cant play KQ in EP profitably, what are you doing wasting time in that game?

Op find some position charts. Limping is not tight.

Was playing 1/2nl waiting for 2/5nl the other day

had QJo UTG+1, limp, six way action (the open is $4 at this casino). Effective stacks $200 ish

flop($24) A T 7 rainbow.
Checks to MP, he bets $10, 2 callers, I call
Turn($64) 9
Checks to MP, he bets $20, 2 callers, I call
River($144) 8
I shove $200, MP tanks then calls, CO folds, BTN snap calls

MP had AT, BTN had AJ

god I love LLSNL

After showdown, MP calls me a donk for chasing a gut shot and likewise the whole table is berating me for "chasing". I just shrug, stack the chips and say, "Yeah, well I felt it was coming, besides gotta get lucky to win right?..."

I think your reasoning is half correct. Just because everyone limps doesn't mean its necessarily good to limp these hands. A10 is just a hard hand to play oop and doesn't flop enough nut hands imo. KQ and KJ are ehh hands for me becuase your top pair is going to be good enough of the time and when its not its usually obvious.

I think in order for you to realistically be limping in ep in a full ring game there needs to be a lot of worse hands limping and rare raises. I'm not sure about most 1/2 games but in the 1/2 games I play there are limped pots pf about 1/3 or 1/4 times. SOMETIMES I see a table that seems favorable to limp pre but usually I stick to raising or folding even then. Its just a spot where you don't gain much if you do get a slight edge and you lose a ton and its hard to draw that line

for what its worth I limp or fold utg and my range is all pairs AQ and AK. I limp re-raise JJ+ and AQ+ vs standard opens and and AK+ and QQ+ vs tight opens or overbet opens. Vs. overbet opens I fold the rest of my range. Vs. standard opens I flat the rest of my range.

see the 5th and 6th paragraphs I wrote in the passage you quoted from me. I define the EXACT conditions that make it profitable.

The hand is played terrible digi. 4-1 on a gutshot lmao. You need 25% equity. You have 16% otf. Your equity didn't change ott.

You won the hand so I guess its ok to play like that vs donks.

Are you serious?

Google implied odds.

I know if I hit, I will get paid off, thus it is insanely profitable.

The guy's call with AT is almost horrifying

I think on 2+2 we forget just how bad fish and donks can be.

A lot of times, we can't help but bias our reads/plays based on what we would or would not do and forget how to properly optimize against many of the terribad villains we will encounter.

There is bad play, ignorant play, tilt play, and every other type of attrocious play in between.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-leak-1146074/

I posted the above hand a few weeks ago.
Cliffnotes: player stacks off and call $1500 overbet shove with Q7o

board: 6 7 4 7 J

this is a leak i've been working hard at plugging, specifically, figuring out the right opportunities to just prison rape my villains with offensive overbets.

Wrong!

You're as bad as the people he was playing with: you can't tell the difference between a gutshot and open-ended.

Level, LMAO