Villain is a young-20s Latino kid, seems to be a solid TAG, have not seen him get out of line and is definitely capable of bluffing/making moves and thinks about his opponents holdings while in a hand. Only noteworthy hand before these: watched him c/c two streets with a NFD and then led the river for about 2/3 of the pot when he hit but hans't shown down a ton of hands.

I ended up in two tough river spots against this same villain in one session, and ended up making the wrong decision both times. I wasn't happy with how I played either hand overall either so wanted to get people's input.

Hand 1:

Effective stacks: 500, I cover

I get 88 in MP and raise to $12. 4 Callers including villain in SB.

Pot ($55)
Flop: 772

Checks to me, I bet $27, fold, fold, fold, Villain raises to $54, I call.

Pot ($163)
Turn: J

Villain checks
I bet $50
Villain calls.

Pot ($263)
River: 3

Villain leads for $100
Hero ???



Hand 2

Villain raises UTG to $11, one call, I call in MP with AJo, SB (passive fish) minraises to $20, everyone calls.

Pot ($75)
Flop: J43

SB bets $25
Villain calls
fold
I call.

Pot ($150)
Turn: T

SB bets $20
Villain raises to $75
I call $75
SB Folds

Pot ($320)
River: 4

Villain bets $120
Hero ???


Like I said, I'm not really a fan with how I played either hands, especially with some of my bet sizings, but curious what people do on the river in each hand and would welcome any other suggestions as well.

In hand one, if opponents are playing pretty tight and will fold overcards on this board, I like the bet sizing. Either they have something or they don't and responses will be relatively inelastic to bet size. OTOH, with three opponents, it's more likely someone has something. I prolly give up on the hand, but I don't hate taking a stab.

But then unless you read V as capable of bluff min-raising here, this should be a fold. You beat nothing that isn't essentially a bluff and you have very few outs to improve. If you do think he's bluffing, check the turn back to snap off a bluff on the river.

On the turn, I don't think his line is a bluff. What bluff check/calls the turn? Perhaps two diamonds that have backed into a draw -- but I think a real TAG often bets that since it continues the story from the flop while providing some equity even if called, and also lets him get away if he's drawing dead and is raised.

On the river I think his range is medium hands (something like AJ) that backed into value and are looking to set the price for a cheap showdown, monsters, and some rare bluffs. I think the medium hands make up most of that range and so raising will show a profit. There's 463 in the pot if you call, and you'd have 311 behind. You're shoving 411 to win 363, so a bit over 50% will do the trick. IMO Shove > Fold >>>> call.



In the second hand, I really, really dislike the pf call with AJo in a raised, multi-way pot. You're going to have crappy decisions. Fold to the first raise. Fold again to the reraise. Passive fish 3-bets (!) AJ not having a good time here.

As played, on the flop you're getting 5:1 to call. I guess it's possible passive fish has AK and V has something like KJ. I still think I fold, but calling can't be too much of a mistake.

Then on the turn, you have another lead (from a passive fish!) and a raise. Um, top top NFG here. Foldity, fold-fold, fold. Do we really expect V to call the flop and then raise the turn into two opps with TPGK?

Finally, on the river, you're getting nearly 4:1 on the bet. I think you should snap fold. I don't think there's a 20% chance V is bluffing with something you beat. It's… unlikely that V has J3 and you've now drawn out on him. What hand does V think you have that called all the way to the river and will now fold getting nearly 4:1 odds? Unlikely bluff IMO.

Villain's line definitely confused me on this hand. On the flop, his raise felt like a "I think you have AK/high cards, I have a pocket pair" type of hand, many of which I would be ahead of, so I decided to flat and reevaluate the turn.

When he checks the turn, that seems to strengthen my read that he has a medium pocket pair hand like 33-66 but could also have 99-TT. I would expect 22 and 7x to bet for value after I called the raise and would expect air to barrel again to continue the bluff. Here is where I don't like my play. I agree with you I should have checked behind on the turn. At the time I really felt strongly that he had 33-66, and the turn bet was for value, and I expected that if he c/c the turn he would also check the river and I could check behind...but I think that is way too thin. I think I should have definitely checked behind and then called a river bet if he made one.

When he called turn and then led the river for $100, my read got really thrown off. I know relative to the pot the bet wasn't even 1/2, but from this villain it felt like a "I'm going to make a 'big' bet," so it didn't feel like a blocker bet. I wasn't sure if he would turn 44-66 into a bluff here, and was worried about a oddly played 22/7x or 33 that boated up on the river.

Pot ($263)
River: 3

Villain leads for $100




I agree this hand was just bad on almost every street so won't go into a ton of detail. I wasn't super worried about the leads from the fish as he had huge bet sizing tells and betting 1/3 pot and then 1/7 pot it was obvious he was super weak. I felt that Villain also realized he was weak and was raising some sort of draw on the turn, which is why I flatted. When both draws missed and he led out again, I had trouble finding a lot of value hands he could be betting, especially since he raised UTG and then just flatted the min raise preflop instead of 4betting.

Pot ($320)
River: 4

Villain bets $120

Hand 1, why did you call flop, and why the hell did you bet the turn? As played, fold river.

Hand 2, fold pre

I'm avoiding looking at the spoilers in case there's subsequent discussion.

Pro tip: you'll get much better discussion of the hand if you include things such as your bet sizing tell read in the post. That's significant information for the hand. (I was very surprised that he folded, but it makes much more sense given the sizing tell.)

Hand 1 is a mess. I really doubt any "solid TAG" is check/min-raising this flop. Your turn bet makes no sense at all. As played, call river I guess, villain's line makes less sense than yours and you're getting a good price.

As for hand 2, I really dislike calling an UTG raise from a good player with a RIO hand like AJo. That said, given his line in hand 1, I don't think villain is good so PF is probably okay. Fold the turn after he raises. You still have the SB behind to worry about and it's hard for villain to ever be bluffing here. As played, you have to call river for that price after calling turn, but expect to lose or chop the majority of the time.

Edit: After reading results, villain a confirmed fish. Not even close to a "sold TAG".

Yeah I definitely mis-labeled my Villain. I meant more to say that from what I had seen so far from him in the session he seemed to be playing on the tighter side and showing down good hands, mixing in aggression to avoid showdown and gave him way too much credit in these hands. I would never label him as so after the hands for sure.

Hand 1 I agree the turn should definitely be a check, which would have made the river a lot easier, and after thinking the hand over as played I still think I should have been able to find a call.

Hand 2 Calling pre definitely put me in a bad spot throughout the entire hand and I was kind of lost as to where I was the whole time. Definitely learning to tighten up my calling ranges pre to avoid spots like this.



Thanks: only my second thread so still learning the proper things to include, how to properly label my viallins, ect. Will look to improve on future threads!

I'm just kinda restating what everybody else said but Hand 1 your turn bet is really weird, but as played I'd probably fold the river because you're only beating mid-pairs that decided to turn their hand into a bluff. I haven't read the results yet but it sounds but don't let the results dictate whether or not your decision was "incorrect", because often what happens to be correct for now is incorrect for the long-run.

Hand 2 If villian is a true TAG then I would avoid calling AJo pre, although we do have position we expect to be put to the test often. When passive fish minraises pre and leads two streets we know he doesn't have air -- of course TPTK is still likely ahead, but when Villian calls OTF and you overcall, V should be at least remotely aware that both the fish and you have pretty strong ranges here. He should never have air here but I expect to see a lot of combo draws, sets, and JT.

Gonna focus on hand 1 since I think I just played hand 2 so poorly overall there is not a ton to gain from it.

I thought about this spot some more to see if I really thought through the hand what I should have done.

OTR in hand 1:
Hands that beat me: 7x, 22, 33, JJ, 99-TT, Jx
Hands I beat: 44-66, air

When looking at the hands, I find it really hard to believe Villains line makes sense for 7x, 22, or JJ. While his play on the flop (ck, minraise) could easily be flopped trips/boat/overpair. Why would he not lead turn after I called his flop raise, or at the very least check/raise. And then again on the river, if he has a hand as strong as these, $100 seems like a small bet. If he somehow shows up with 33 here as well, I would expect him to bet larger than $100 on the river as well.

I can't reasonably see a way that he has Jx..unless he was just trying to steal with pot with two overs on the flop and hit a pair.

And I feel like if he has 99-TT, he would check the river and not lead.

Am I in the right ballpark here?

I just don't think his line makes sense for any hands that beat me...which is what I was thinking when I was tanking on the river. I'm curious if going with my read would have been the "correct" play, regardless of the actual outcome.

(Obviously should have checked behind on the turn but mostly concerned with the river decision AP).

In general, until I see a disposition for V to take extremely unorthodox lines, I will lean towards believing that betting in spots where there are very few bluffs, are generally for value and just poorly played. In this example, V check/called the turn when there are no draws, so we should assume there are next to no complete air hands other than maybe AK.

It's hard to piece together the reasoning of fish, but I would expect to see a lot more weak 7x's, TT that doesn't want to call a river bet so they bet themselves, maybe some flopped boats that are trying to be tricky. And of course Jx who was bluffing now doesn't know what to do so they lead. At the time you didn't know how fishy V was, so I'd never really put him on 44-66 here.

Makes sense, that was similar to my reasoning for the fold in hand 1, the line seemed really weird so I just gave him credit. I then had trouble giving him credit in hand 2 after learning what he had in hand 1.

I didn't even realize the pot size in Hand 2. The SB's lead is basically a check, so V's raise to $75 doesn't even look that strong. Had SB checked and V led for $75 I don't really think folding is an option. I'm actually not that against a call OTT and "most rivers".

You say now the 2nd hand was a bad call, but do you really expect him to check back if he bricked? I think he's going to fire it 80% of the time, so I don't see it being a mistake to call every time with TPTK.

As for hand 1, this line really isn't that bad with his value range. I could see myself doing this *sometimes*, as x/r OTF is going to get peeled with basically any PP and 2 overs, and knowing I won't get 3 streets from anything but like TT-AA I'd probably check the turn to make myself look weak as well as allow the hands floating w/ 2 overs catch a pair - then make a really weird lead OTR for value. Not saying I'd always do that, but I can definitely see this being done with 7x.

Hand 2 I never said I hated my river call, I think once I get there I have to call since all the draws missed. It was more getting to the river that I didn't love. Fold pre is obviously the easy/best option, but once I call pre, is there any better way to play the hand post flop? I can't imagine ever 3! the flop, but is 4! the turn ever reasonable if I think Villain is just trying to steal with a draw against the really weak bet by the SB?

Grunch.

Hand 1

Getting c/r here is super ugly. Against the typical 1/2 player we should just fold. Against this guy maybe we should take one off. Definitely checking behind on the turn though when checked to us. I want to go to showdown as cheaply as possible and I feel a turn blocking bet is likely to get exploited by this guy. As played I´m definitely folding the river.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should just fold the flop. We are repping an overpair here and got check raised. Mostly he has a trips or a boat here, sometimes 99-JJ. Folding seems weak, but mostly we are in bad shape here and are gmost certainly going to have to put more money into the pot to see a showdown agains this guy. Opponents that will raise with air or smaller PP here are few and far between at this level. Save your bullets for another battle. Fold and defintely don´t show your cards.

Hand 2

Fold pre here with AJo. I might fold AJs here too. It seems weak, but I don´t really want to play a dominated hand against a decent thinking TAG who raised UTG. We don´t have the button and we are not closing the action. Our relative position is not that great.

As played I guess the hand is fine. I don´t really see too much point in raising the flop because we are mostly WAWB. I don´t think our hand is strong enough to raise on the turn, so I would just call. River is a good card for us and his bet is pretty weak. Again I don´t think our hand is strong enough to raise against a thinking TAG. Just call and expect to be good a decent percentage of the time.

The river would be a lot more interesting if we faced a 2/3 PSB. Still would be tough to fold even though it looks so much like a juicy value bet with a set or JT.

Tough spots.

Hmm. It depends how you think V would respond to turn re-raise if he had a combo draw.

If he can reshove here, then I don't know if I like it because we're flipping some of the time and drawing dead against his value range. If you think he'd realize you're never folding after a turn raise and thus now play his hand face up via calling the turn and never bluff-shoving the river, then yeah it has some merit.

I would also give more weight towards value when he raises the turn considering how small it is relative to the pot, but I know a lot of live players don't realize how much is in the pot.

What I realized from these hands is that Villain definitely wasn't thinking about the size of the pot with his bet sizing - he was more thinking about betting "big," whatever he thought that to be. Like his $100 river bet is small compared to the pot in H1, but I think he wanted to just put what he thought to be a large bet out there as a bluff.