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1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? 1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision?

11-24-2015 , 06:52 PM
Thoughts on this hand from my last live session? My friend is absolutely adamant about checking back the turn in this spot, but with the effective stack sizes and action, i disagree. Thoughts?

Villain is a MAWG, seems semi decent. Opened AQo earlier UTG and called a BTN 3b from Hero with AK earlier. Was checked too showdown and Hero took the pot uncontested.
We played a pot earlier where Hero opened Q9s from the HJ, V called in BB. V donked a K98 flop, Hero called.
V leads the A turn, where Hero picks up the NFD, and call again. River Q, V leads again for 25 into 85, Hero calls. V laughs and asks if Hero has a pair, which I said 2p and opened my hand. V then laughed and said nice hand, while he slowrolled the JT for the nuts. Hero was kinda tilted and took a dinner break.
Standard table open is 6-12 from any position.

Hand in question:
Stack sizes are $185 eff.

Pre flop: V(UTG) Opens for $6, 2 callers.
Hero 3bets AK in CO too $30, V cold calls. Rest fold

Flop: ($75) 8 4 2
V checks, Hero cbets for $40 (bigger sizing here?), V calls.

Turn ($155) K
V checks, Hero puts villain in for remaning $115.

This turn move is where i'd like some input. My friend who plays primarily online MTT and cash says this turn is a slam dunk check back spot, too induce bluffs or thin calls from V on river? His logic is that we are never getting called by worse on the turn, and folding out most of his TT/JJ/QQ. Also if we check back turn to induce we have too call off on 99% of rivers. And with this V i couldnt see him bluff jamming many hands with showdown value after i check turn.
Also most flush draws in his range (cant see there being many combos of these though) would likely stack off on turn becasue lol liveaments. And any hand we are behind (KK/AA/88/44), we have still have a shred of equity against on the turn.

Any thoughts?
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-24-2015 , 07:16 PM
Super standard line and well played, IMO.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-24-2015 , 08:19 PM
I agree with your friend. With just 2/3 PSB left behind and us being in a WA/SB spot, I think it's much better to get it in on the river. The one advantage shoving turns has is that he's more likely to call a FD on the turn than he is to shove it on the river unimproved, but I think his cold/calling range is more weighted toward TT-QQ than draws.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-24-2015 , 08:24 PM
Thanks for replies, will post spoilers tomorrow. Any merit in checking back the flop, betting turn?
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-24-2015 , 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLiveCrush
Thanks for replies, will post spoilers tomorrow. Any merit in checking back the flop, betting turn?
The flop bet doesn't really accomplish much in terms of traditional bluff/value, but checking just lets his worse hands freeroll against us and forces us into some mistakes when he bets future streets (either having to call down against OPs or folding to bluffs).

I think just cbetting with all of our equity is best.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 04:30 PM
Surviva316 spot on as usual.

I agree cold call 3bet range is predominantly pocket pairs, AK and some big suited cards. You block all the big unpaired cards with FD so you're almost certainly up against a pocket pair after he calls your flop bet (which I would definitely make btw).

Personally I usually bet nearer pot on drawy flops whether I have overpairs or a draw to the nuts to avoid being readable. Probably unnecessary vs most opponents but vs solid players I'll usually do this. Interested in your opinion surviva...

Turn gives you a hand that is "good enough to check". No need to bet here, you have the best hand most of the time, have the main draw covered and struggle to be called by worse since V rarely has FD and expects you to have AK here a lot.

Checking is a nearly costless way to add some deception and protection from stacking off vs sets (unlikely admittedly). Mainly deception is the key though. I think V calls river shove with QQ/JJ quote a lot because he tells himself you have TT or are bluffing a missed FD.

I don't hate just shoving turn but I think checking is better.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 04:51 PM
Really disagree. We're a favorite to literally everything except sets. Flop bet is all value.

Betting flop and never folding to a raise. Turn shove is cool too.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 05:05 PM
I'm always betting flop and also not folding to a raise so we can't be completely disagreeing.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 05:12 PM
Had my response all written out for shipping the turn, but after thinking about it, his hand just really looks like 77/99 to me and he might want to get to showdown cheaply.

I can't really give V credit for having a big PP here, or a hand that he will bluff the river if we check. His 3x open from UTG may be big cards but I think its more leaning towards mid-pairs and maybe some SCs. He showed that he was not willing to barrel without a hand with AQ, but will lead right out with a draw. I think he will fold those hands nearly 100% of the time, but he may believe his pair is good OTR and not believe our river ship, thus giving us a better chance of him calling. It's not that we ever fear our hand not being good, but its going to be difficult to get value from V at this point since we've showed so much strength.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 05:13 PM
sorry I should have quoted, I meant I disagreed with Surviva316 when he said a flop bet wasn't traditional bluff or value. I think it's very value-weighted.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 05:40 PM
^ yes that's true. I also should have quoted the bit where surviva was spot on about the turn!

Also good note on V's small open raise and related thinking alecspade - I didn't notice that, good read.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 06:18 PM
Check the turn because you're so far ahead you can afford to let V catch up. Let flushes hit and lose, if he has QQ-99 he has 2 outs, you are letting him see the river for free, but his set is bad if it's the club otr, and checking the turn makes you more likely to get paid otr by worse.

If you had AK on an AAK-5 board, you'd check and let him catch up, it's not as extreme in this hand but the same concepts apply.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-25-2015 , 09:24 PM
Results here:

Spoiler:
So like i said, i shoved turn and Villain ended up calling with AA
River bricked out, GG
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote
11-26-2015 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLiveCrush
Thoughts on this hand from my last live session?

Turn ($155) K
V checks, Hero puts villain in for remaning $115.
^ Did he get angry when you reached over and grabbed his stack and put it in the pot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLiveCrush
My friend ... says ... check back ... to induce ... thin calls from V on river?
^ Does your friend base all his decisions on imaginary and unlikely future events? Villain supposedly has some range that will c/c thin on the river but not on the turn? Check back turn might be good, but it's unlikely good for THAT reason.

Does your friend actually believe that when you check back the turn and villain shoves the river, it's an easy decision for you?

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 11-26-2015 at 11:41 AM.
1/2 TPTK + NFD in 3b pot IP..turn decision? Quote

      
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