I’m constantly getting sucked into these spots where I’m forced to call a tiny bet OTR due to pot odds when infact I’m wrong every time.

Here’s a 1/2 hand.. loose passive table.. zero 3betting.. V is BB old man.

UTG ($600) opens to $8, UTG1 ($200) calls, Hero ($600) flats A8hh in MP, MP1 ($200) flats, BB ($200) calls.

Flop ($40): AT9r
BB x, UTG x, UTG1 x, Hero $20, MP1 folds, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG1 folds

Turn ($80): 4x

Now I usually just check back here since my kicker is terrible, but you guys often recommend betting thin here and check back river instead. So Hero bets $40, BB calls

River ($160): 6x
BB leads $50, Hero calls thinking he might have QJ.

How do I ever fold given this price? Although I know I’m beat, I make the call.

V shows AJo.

The real trick is don't pay off some fish in some line they never bluff in. the way to beat somebody doing this is to either raise or fold otr, which obviously includes value raising thinly e.g t9/aq not just passively calling everytime you have a "bluffcatcher".

Yeah I have really been considering turning my medium strength hands like these into bluffs OTR when it’s obv what they’re trying to do.. but the guy had a measly $80 bucks left here.. so he’s never folding right?

You bet the turn here though?

I would fold pre, check flop, turn is even more of a check, and then on the river I honestly probably fold because Idk what we really beat besides QJ, but we could've avoided this all by just folding pre, and when we didn't, we played flop and turn poorly so Idk

I think folding any suited ace pre from any position in a loose passive 1/2 game with zero 3betting for $8 when the OR who is OOP has $600 behind is extremely nitty.

We can overflush someone, pot control Axx flops and even fold to any aggression. Sometimes, we don’t even need to make a hand to win if everyone behind us folds giving us the BTN effectively.

Checking TP on this flop when nobody has shown interest seems losing value against all sorts of draws or even Tx that may call one bet here. I would check this only if it was a competent 2/5 game.

Not having position post flop sucks with a hand like that, especially not as the PFR. Fold>3 bet>call. We get into so many spots where we flop top pair and have to call a c bet, then fold to a turn barrel; or we flop a FD and have to call a large flop bet and then don't get paid when we hit. We're exclusively looking to hit 2p, trip 8's, or a flush.

We are going to value own ourselves so often by betting the flop, and also get put into some awkward spots on later streets.

PF is totally fine lol. Overcalling 4bb, 300bb deep with a suited Ace in a passive game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Flop bet is too big. Check is preferable. You don't need protection and you are not that high up in your range. This multiway there are plenty of sets and 2 pairs. Starightening cards are obvious and there are no other draws to protect from.

As played I fold river.

We have position.

We can evaluate when we flop TP postflop. We are not going KAMIKAZE because we hit TP.

For example, if PFR bet anything bigger than $20 OTF into 4 ppl, I’m snap mucking here.

But here, they all checked to me, I should have the best hand a ton here and even if I get a call, I can proceed in position. Unless MP1 behind me calls.

I don’t think flatting is terrible. But depending on how UTG plays, 3 betting may be better.

Check flop. This is a good hand to put in your range here since you can’t go three streets anyway and it’s a large field.

Fold river. If they’re never bluffing, you have to win almost 20% of the time. Do you?


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I do all of this unless table is on the passive side as described by OP, in which case I overcall because we're 300bb effective with bad players so it seems like a decent spot.

check/call check/call lead is usually going to be a line that beats A8 here. It looks like you have an ace. You bet into everyone and then continued on the turn. Now V is leading into you for a small amount. Does he think you're folding an ace for $50? Probably not. A missed draw is probably going to bet larger.

I would have checked the flop and see what happens. Not too many bad turn cards and you may pick up some equity on the turn too. If you had a backdoor FD I would bet the flop.

300bb deep I would also 3b pre to $25-30 to take control of the hand and strengthen your range.

If you’re never good then you’re not getting the right pot odds...
You could be getting 1000 to 1 but you’re good 0% of the time you shouldn’t be calling. Obviously that’s not really ever going to be the case but I’m trying to make my point here.
Just because someone makes a small bet on the river doesn’t mean you should always be calling it.

$50 into $160 is not tiny! That's 25bb in this game. Tiny would be when villain bets like 1/10 of pot you gotta call wider.

If they always have it, you should always fold. If they have it more than 80% of the time, then you should fold when they bet 1/3 pot on the river.

I mean, really. Who bluffs 1/3 pot on the river in LOLowstakes NL? Pretty much nobody does. So this should turn into a really, really easy spot to exploitatively fold.

Preflop, this is a decent call. We are not flatting first in after an open; there is already a flat-caller ahead of us, and a decent multiway pot is brewing. The real question is: who is there, yet to act, who might squeeze? If there are aggro players waiting to act, we should think about folding. If not, though, calling here is good.

The flop, though, is a major mistake. Even with position in a four-way pot, we should not be betting the pot with top pair, bad kicker. Because our top pair is an ace, we have no fear of a card falling that can give someone in the field a higher pair. Yes the board is wet, but *everyone* else has sets and two pair in their ranges (and the opener even has the one remaining combo of AA). We have no nut advantage, we certainly do not have range advantage, and there are only a handful of AX combos that other players can have that we beat. When we bet and get called we are in serious equity trouble. What's more, we aren't even in best position. MP1 can make our life miserable if we bet.

Check. The. Flop.

As played on the flop, we are in trouble and want to put as little money in the pot as we can get away with. Check behind on the turn.

And of course, as played on the flop and turn, the river is an easy fold. Old Man Coffee has donked into you on the river for 1/3 pot. Calling is lighting money on fire.

The prime poker objective is not to win hands but to win money.

By definition, if you have the pot odds to call, that means the reward (win amount) relative to the risk (e.g. call amount) is favorable. So, even though you are behind (e.g., for a heads-up case, equity is less than 50%) a call is justified. Yes, because you are behind, you should expect to lose the majority of the time but you should also expect to be profitable.

Of course, this assumes your pot odds analysis is valid. So, if your experiencing a significant downswing while using pot odds (and other factors) to decide, if it’s not variance perhaps your analysis needs improvement or maybe it’s some of both.

pre : I would actually just fold pre. Most likely you are dominated, and the odds of flopping even a flush draw are fairly remote. We are very deep and it is not a huge open, which argues in favour of calling, but overall I prefer a fold.

flop : we flop top pair and bet five way. sizing looks good. bet looks good. still a very precarious situation.

the best way to avoid these spots is to decide why we're playing multiway pots pre to begin with. if we're taking a hand like this multiway it's to either play a flush draw very aggressive on the flop, to overflush someone for stacks, or to hit two pair or trips for stacks. it should be never to go for three streets with one pair.

I don't mind the flop bet as much as most do, by checking you are essentially giving up as you are giving a free card to four players, so many turns will complete two pairs, gutshots, Tx or 9x could give someone trips, low cards could hit someone's set. Plus you only have one person to get through to have position, then you can evaluate turns based on who calls (or scoop the pot right now). I like the bet even more if you have backdoor hearts.

I do not like the turn bet though, after old man calls I would be looking to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

You should at least get the math right. Villain bet $50 into a pot of $160. We should call if we are good more than 50/(160+50+50) = 19.2% of the time.

But of course this spot is massively underbluffed, and we are not good that often, so we should fold here.

a question we should be asking as hero here is, would the old man in the BB have folded AT-AJo if we 3bet this hand preflop?

if the answer is yes then we should be considering sometimes a 3bet pf. suited aces are great to play a 3bet pot heads up in position for 300 bigs deep. if this is a table where nobody is 3betting then we should also assume nobody is light 4betting. given this type of table dynamic I wouldn't mind occasionally making it $35 pre here and flatting the rest of the time. but when we do flat it should never be to go three streets with one pair bad kicker in an 8 way pot.

calling pre is horrible ; especially in a passive game

WHAT do passive players do with AK AQ ??? they limp

before putting in any chips answer yourself this ????? what flop am I hoping for ?

an Ace ? no as my kicker sucks
an 8 no as passive players limp KK QQ JJ 1010
2 to my flush ????? why so I can chase this???? will I get paid if the 3rd heart comes??????

so the thought of "ITS ONLY 2 DOLLARS" compounds itself on every street just from the simple error preflop .

everyone likes to think they play great post-flop BUT unless you really do this simple $2.00 error costs thousands yearly to your bottom line

I would have raised or folded pre , calling is the worst option.

This is just such nitty thinking. No, they don’t limp AQ/AJ often, they don’t limp KK/QQ/JJ often at all. And when they do, they let us know pre or post.

A8s for $8 when stacks are $600 deep is a no brainer call for me, and yes, 3betting is fine too.

maybe our definition of passive is different

I see AK AQ/AJ often, KK/QQ/JJ often limped all day every day
and I play mostly $2-5 as its the highest game going in my local rooms

just yesterday on a KQ369 no flush board limped 6 ways pre
there was AK who lost the side pot to QQ who lost the main pot to KK

Who cares.. I’m still not folding A8s multi-way at 1/2 unless it’s a big open.. I would fold it in a 2/5 game though since people don’t play any two cards there and my over flushing chances go down significantly

your 100% right you're never folding !!!

where exactly is this game ? a bunch of us want to know

you're the one forcing yourself to call, no one else is

give it time; your on 2+2 so eventually it'll sink in