V: came to table <2 hrs ago with 1.2k. Has bled down to $900 or so. Has proven he's capable to put in ~$100 on turn/river with nothing but "nut no pair" or a medium strength hand. Has proven he is more interested in doubling his stack size rather than protecting what he has before he goes home. It's 4am. Neither V, nor H, is drunk/stoned, or tired.

He will O/R with 77+, AJo, 98s in EP and c/r OOP with a strong flush/str8 draw but no pair. In other words, it is damn near impossible to tell what he has unless you raise him on the turn.

H: TAG, although I use that term loosely. Although I'm tight, I can experience some major shrinkage at times when it comes to firing the proper size large bet on the flop/turn when the time is right.

I also feel that I may have projected an image of being a "fit or fold" type player. That is typically the case when OOP in multi-way pots when I've checked, someone bet & got 3/4 callers, but not so IP.


ES: V: ~$900 & I have ~$500 & we have everyone covered, so we're playing for $500.00

4 limpers for $2 & V makes it $20 to go in the CO.

What should H size his raise at PF?

Spoiler alert - Hero's PF re-raise:

What position are you? I assume button? If so, I make it $50, which isn't an ideal SPR, but is more likely to get called by his likely weaker range. Against this guy, I'll stack off with an SPR of 10 on good boards.

If we're in the blinds, I go bigger, to make up for the fact that we'll be playing OOP. In that case, I'll go $60-65. If he folds, oh well. Winning 14BBs with QQ risk free doesn't suck.

I don't mind flatting. The problem is we can't really raise big enough to keep in worse hands AND set up a low SPR otf. If we raise to $75, then the SPr is ~3 otf, if you raise more, you're getting to the point of only 99-JJ calling. Another reason I like a flat, its $18 more to the limpers. If it were like $10 more to them they'r probably all calling, the sizing V went for makes me think it'll be HU a lot of the time. So I like a flat, we're ip (I think), we're HU and we're miles ahead of V's range, we're $480 deep, plenty of maneuverability room post flop.

I think it's very close between flatting and raising. But in your read on villain, you note that you have trouble reading him and that you think he can read you a bit so I'd lean towards flatting and plan to raise any flop with no A or K. If you 3! here, he's going to correctly put you on a big PP.

yes just flat the raise - no need to 3bet as a $40+ pot will be something to get some $$$ in on the flop. He will likely cbet

65 and iso the lag... you dont want to play this super multi way...

Call.

Does V vary his raise sizes pre? By position, card strength? Have you been able to see any meaningful showdowns?

I'd 3bet to $55 or $60.

First things 1st: I need to apologize for the poor introduction to the hand.
1. I posted in the title that I was on the button, but not in the thread.
2. I somehow duplicated part of my OP that had to be edited by a Moderator.
3. I didn't give any info on the 4 limpers and this was crucial info that was needed! Why I forgot that is beyond me.
4. My spoiler shouldn't have said: "Hero's PF re-raise." It gives it away!
It should have said: "Hero's PF action"

Live & learn..........

Concerning V varying the size of his PF raises: A $20 bet tells me he has a pocket pair. He may juice up [most likely] the pot with 76s, etc., but $15/$20 is his raise with pairs & AK/AQs when it's a 4+ way $2 limp fest.

With that said:
Being on the button & two blinds yet to act & 4 limpers I wasn't looking for a multi-way pot. If 1 of the blinds woke up with a hand that played well with others & called the $20.00, I could see the 1st limper [loose & will chase with stuff like A6s, etc. OOP] tossing in $20.

If the 1st limper calls, it's possible I'll get another of the 3 remaining limpers to call, especially if a blind called. Then it's possible I'm looking at 4/5 handed going into the flop.

I was thinking if I have 1 guy drawing to KTs & another to AXs, then there's possibly 6 cards that can hit the flop and beat me....3:1?
What I really don't like: Flop comes with 1 overcard & it's checked to me & I can't be sure if they're lookin' for a c/r or don't have the K/A in their hand.

Or: Flop comes with 1 overcard & coordinated board & player bets his draw & I don't know if he paired or bet a draw.

I expect to get plenty of action from the LAG in the CO, so I saw no reason to have this hand go down any other way than HU.

So, based upon my line of thinking I feel as if I have to 3-bet. Thoughts?

I'm surprised so many people are recommending a call when you have a huge hand in position and every expectation that the villain will call you with much worse.

I'd 3bet. You want to get heads up and you have a strong hand in position. I'd raise to $60. If villain calls, you'll have an SPR of about 3.5 and can feel comfortable betting/GII on most flops.

Calling preflop risks triggering a cascade of limp/calls which is a disaster with QQ.

My thoughts exactly. We should flat under two conditions

1) We are certain villain will fold worse hands and only continue with hands that beat us.
2) We are certain the limpers will fold (or at max one will call).

Since this guy is willing to make with the gambols, I make it $60 to go. We have position, initiative, and crush his range. Plus we set ourselves up for a good SPR of a bit over 4 which makes the hand pretty easy to play when we flop good.

Raise to $65 or $70. also, folding if any limpers 4bet, prob getting da moneyz in against V unless you have a good reason to believe he only 4bets QQ+, AKs

Calling just seems very bad here. Not only are you missing value pre, but you're also giving the limpers a chance to continue which reduces your equity and they will now have relative position.

ya we didn't hear about the limpers so a 3bet is good.

with a nitty image, calling is better. QQ is probably the bottom of your range in his eyes if you 3-bet.

Based on the villain's image, I'm not sure he's concerned about hero's 3-bet range and will call wider in order to crack a big hand.

Yeah it really depends on the villain. If he's just a bad aggro, then 3-betting is best. If he's actually a winning LAG, calling is better.

Why? You don't beat aggressive players by calling all their bets and hoping you make the best hand. Against a good LAG, you need to 3bet a wide range, which means to need to include your value hands in your 3bet range.

This.

I don't think Flatting is the default or standard play by any means. I think we can flatt for some deception value occasionally but if we aren't 3 betting QQ on the button vs a LAG what hands are we 3 betting in this spot. QQ will not be an over pair all that often so I think its far more important to take initiative and get value pre flop.

I 3 bet to 55/65 and expect to take the heads up, in position with the best hand. Sounds like a winning combination to me.

If he is a semi competent LAG I suppose we can make an argument for a polarized 3 betting range. Perhaps include AA/KK and then include our random Broadway combo type hands and suited Ax hands. Often times we still get value because lags will still call with worse Hands like suited connectors and suited 1 gappers etc. But really this dynamic is only needed if he is actually a good LAG which I think are few and far in between.

in general, I agree, and I personally would always 3-bet here, but I never have a nit image. If you have a nit image against a good player, I'd rather 3-bet air than 3-bet QQ and turn our hand face up and be at the bottom of our percieved range.

If he's going to call and pay us off with worse than QQ then either he isn't a good player or we aren't percieved as a nit.

Before going any further, I forgot to mention in the OP: the flop is going to make this hand very interesting, I think, which is why I posted it.

We've got 6 inches of snow here in Eastern Panhandle of WV, so no leaving the house today. Accord has Hankook snow tires [sounds like a small snow plow driving thru 3/4 inches on the interstate], but my street hasn't been plowed & probably won't be until the middle of tomorrow morning.

My sentiments exactly. I think my poor intro to the hand may have lead some to think calling was a decent play. Some may still believe it's a good play. If so, I would appreciate additional input. Since I'm an avg. 1/2 player, I'm open to varying lines of thought.

Again, right on point with my line of thinking. My belief in the axiom: "You win less money with your premium hands OOP, than you do IP" is resolute & I play my hands OOP accordingly.

I think where you are coming from is:
You don't believe any of the limpers have a premium hand [as do I] & the odds of 1 of the blinds having one [AKo etc., that some players will $20 with but not $45] is slim.

You want to maximize the return on your QQ & do not mind allowing 2 more players, with weaker hands, to tag along in the hopes of making more money.
You're thinking: I may lose a little equity allowing 1/2 more players in, but they've got weaker hands, you're still the favorite & you make more money in the long run when up against 3 when you're the best with QQ.
Am I correct?

bobman0330 [with almost 20k posts] is surprised so many recommend just calling. Maybe that's because you take the approach of looking much further down the highway when it comes to maximizing your return. Therefore, you will risk more on a hand so long as you are still the favorite?

Stay tuned! You will find V's play interesting, when you take into account he sat down at the table with 1.3k when his table broke.

Well, if you deduced that I have a "nitty" image, would you say your avg. Nit raises in this situation with AKo? Because I definitely would raise to $45.00 in this particular situation against this opponent.

Also [although it's easy to say here sitting at my desk], I believe I would 3-bet 88+ here, but to $50.00 because I'm IP. However, since it's easy to swing your Johnson at your desk typing in a thread in 2+2, let's go with TT+. I honestly believe 3-betting with TT, against this player would be my play.

I suffer from "shrinkage" when I get 4-bet PF, or, run up against resistance PF when I play my hand strong.

I'll give it 8-10 more hrs before posting the flop in the hopes I get some feedback on this post. Thanks.

raise to 60

While I'm waiting [hoping] for any responses to post today @ 4:05pm, I'll go ahead & post some more of the PF action:
I raised to $45.00. Everyone folded to CO who 4-bet to $90.00.

There is $101 - rake/bb [$7] $94.00 in the pot that isn't mine. Well technically, the $45 I already put in there is no longer mine also unless I call.

Is there a case to be made for re-raising or going all-in here? I've got ~$455 left. If I call I've got $410 left. If I've got him pegged spot on, i.e., 77+, I've got 5 pairs beat & 2 beat me.

V has a propensity to give off tells sometimes when he hits the flop big. About 20 minutes ago he paid $20 PF multi-way with A9s, while chattin' it up. When the flop came 99J, he went quiet. Another time he hit a K-high flush draw with middle pair & started shuffling his hole cards. Started chattin' it up with his two opponents & got serious when he hit 2 pair on the turn.

I would think with all these proven tells I have on him, I should call. Maybe he'll think I have AKs and C-bet the flop with an underpair if there is no A/K on flop?

I only know this because I'm in seat 10 & he's in 8 [ 9 is empty] so I've got a perfect view of his mannerisms & he's got most of the money & bringing most of the action, so of course I'm paying a lot of attention to him.

Given V's likely perception of you, I think I find a fold now. You've given off a "fit or fold" image which translates to "nitty", so yeah I'd fold now.

5betting to $200-$240 commits you, 5betting all in gets snapped off by AA and KK, flatting leaves you making very difficult decisions postflop.