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1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush 1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush

05-22-2015 , 01:50 AM
Hand 1 (7 handed): Pretty early on, table skill level pretty low generally.

Hero (~$345): 99on CO

Preflop: EP limps, Villain in MP limps, Hero makes it $10, button and SB folds, BB calls, EP folds, Villain calls.

Flop ($33 in pot): 964

BB checks. Villain bets $20. Hero calls $15. BB folds.

Turn ($68 in pot): A

Villain bets $30 and has about $125 behind, Hero?


Spoiler:
Hero shoves all in for $155 effective and Villain folds. I know Villain folds all hands that I have beat (except lower sets) but I think he will not call a river bet with anything that loses to a set of 9s (except maybe lower sets that would call turn shove anyways). I'm denying him odds to draw out because if he is on a FD, he will only call a river bet if he makes the flush. If he has a lower set or 2-pair I might stack him on turn. Is this sound logic or is there a better way to maximize value?




Hand 2 (same table, 8 handed):

Villain is this super aggro fish who seems to play too many hands and often limp calls preflop. Is relatively aggressive postflop and has been involved in a couple big pots in the short time he's been at the table.

Hero (~$480): QJ UTG

Preflop: Hero raises to $6. 2 MPs call and aggro-fishy villain in SB calls.

Flop (pot = $26): K98

Villain checks. Hero bets $10, 2 MPs fold and Villain calls.

Turn (pot = $46): 6

Villain checks, Hero bets $20. Villain calls.

River: (pot = $86): 6

Villain starts talking about the river in a negative tone and acts like he doesn't like it. Then Villain leads out $60 with just over $200 effective behind.

Hero?

Spoiler:
Hero thinks for about a minute and folds face up. Villain and button are astonished. Button says Hero is the tightest player he's ever seen folding queen of spade on that board. Villain says 'Good Fold'.


I think Villain has to have me beat here and is most likely holding the A of spades, or maybe has a FH. The talking/body language just seemed like bad acting to me. (By the end of the night Villain manages to accumulate almost a $1000 stack by limp calling every hand, raising and check raising light, and repeatedly catching miracle rivers and once hit a runner-runner trips after check-shoving flop with a straight draw vs 2 pair :/)

Last edited by herpderp123; 05-22-2015 at 02:09 AM.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 02:01 AM
Hand 1, raise bigger pre, raise flop to $55, value bet turn.
As played I don't mind jamming turn or making it $110 or something

Hand 2 our bet sizing just needs to be bigger throughout hand. As played flip a coin on the river call I guess. The tell is strength for sure but I'm still probably making a crying call and hoping he shows KQ or K9 or something.

I didn't read any spoilers I'll go back and enlightened myself a little; I think the overall lesson is that small bet sizing put us in awkward situations both times here
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 06:46 AM
Hand 1: Because of the rake, I never bet even amounts b4 the full rake has been taken. Where I usually play, the rake is $6 & $1 BB at $20.00.
If everyone had folded back to the limper & he called, $3 would have been raked, leaving $20 in the pot. So, you're getting even money on your bet.

Another reason I do this: they rake the pot even if there isn't a flop.

If you raise to $12 & he calls, it still even money [with $24 in the pot] however on the flop you can bet $17 & if he calls, there is $58 in the pot & the $8 isn't subjected to a rake, so you're putting up $17 to his $14 after the house rakes away another $3.00.

Now on the turn, if you still like your hand, bet what it's worth & your opponent folds, there is no more rake, you've saved yourself $1.00 which can be used to tip the dealer.

I know many will find this ridiculous, however, I play ~35 hrs a week & I'm certain it has saved me well over $100.00 since last July.

On the turn, if he is betting a pair with a flush draw, he only has 7 outs to the flush making him ~5.25:1 dog. You could have raised to $70 & he wouldn't be getting the right price & he may have called.

Hand 2 You need to be betting more. At least 1/2 pot otf & I'd bet the pot ott.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 06:55 AM
Hand one: OTF, V bets $20 and H calls $15, and pot goes from $33 to $68? That's interesting. I've not been in a card room where that happens.
Anyway, three way action and y have position. BB checks, V bets, you should raise. Even a min raise would be welcome here. Flat calling allows Bb to continue at a great price if he's drawing and also is going to make it harder to get stacks in AND if you raise, Bb might call anyway and V might get aggro and shove on you, which would be welcome.
You have to raise OTF. You don't have to shove, but get some more chips in there.
As played. V fires again on the A, a card that should be in your preflop raising range. If you floated on the flop with overs, that card hit you. If you flopped NFD, that card hit you. Vs bet is a blocking bet, I guess. I think raising makes sense but you're a little deep to just shove, esp given pot size. If you had built the pot a little more on the flop, you could GII now, but as played, click it back for a small raise. If V is drawing, you want him to continue, just deny him the right price.
Hand 2: why are you betting less than half pot on the flop? Why are you betting less than half pot on the turn? You flopped a monster, get paid. On the flop, bet $20, not $10. On the turn, you bet $20 into $46. Bet $40. If you had made a real bet OTF, the pot would have been $66, and you could bet $45-60 OTT.
Maybe you bet small so as to not chase them away, in an attempt to win more money. Given you folded river, that plan didn't work in this case.
In my experience, folks have a hard time putting you on a flopped flush and rarely expect you to play a flopped flush fast. So play it fast and get paid while they are drawing. You're almost always going to get action from the dry A of the suit on a board like this. Charge him to draw against your hand.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 08:16 AM
Hand 1: Raise more preflop. If villain bet $15 then you should raise flop, but $20 is OK to flat because it's a pretty dry flop. On turn his bet size is annoying but shipping it is the right move. He probably won't give you any more on river.

Hand 2: Raise more or fold QJs UTG, and fold is probably best. On flop bet $20, if your flush was lower I would go even more. Turn bet should also be larger, $30/$40. Betting small to keep people from folding is a losing strategy in the long run. River is ugly but your read sounds right. The key thing here is don't show your villain when you make these big folds.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 11:32 AM
I think you need to give us a read on V1 in hand 1.

Calling flop may be a very good option here if he normally keeps betting once he starts in spite of what others are saying above.

We aren't deep enough that we need to raise now to get stacks in.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-22-2015 , 01:31 PM
Grunch- hand 1

Would like a slightly bigger raise pre with the limpers but not end of the world

For the love of God raise the flop. Not a pot sized raise, of course, something small that V will call with a 9 or spade draw or his weird pair + gutter hands, two overs + a gutter etc

AP I raise to $80 or something on the turn. Looks like V's block betting now...
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 06:14 AM
Grunch

Hand 1: Raise more pf, maybe to $15. Raise the flop. We want to build a large pot here and raising the flop actually conceals our hand strength more than raising the turn. With two spades and somewhat connecting cards we can get called by lots of hands here.

Hand 2: Not sure what to make of a $6 raise. Definitely have to bet more on the flop and turn. River is fine given he bet 3/4 of the pot.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Hand 1: however, I play ~35 hrs a week & I'm certain it has saved me well over $100.00 since last July.
lolz

In reality you have cost yourself money by not building max sized pots pf with your big hands.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 06:25 AM
Grunch:

Hand 1: raise flop to around 70 and shove turn. Drawy board and I think villain will bet call a lot of his range. Also I'd probably raise a bit bigger pf

Hand 2: I'm probably limping this preflop at a passive table, also think you could just fold UTG, as played raise more though, like 10.

I'd bet flop and turn bigger, close to pot. Think you probably have to fold river as it seems villain wouldn't vb worse and is probably not bluffing enough to make a profitable call
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuneit
Hand 1: however, I play ~35 hrs a week & I'm certain it has saved me well over $100.00 since last July.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
lolz

In reality you have cost yourself money by not building max sized pots pf with your big hands.
No I don't. I ADD the dollar[s] increment to what I think my hand is worth.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 03:02 PM
Ok Thanks guys. So moral is raise more PF and bet more if I hit on the flop. My question is on the 99 hand what if I had raised to $15 preflop and get called and the flop is A64 with 2 spades instead? Or if it's something really drawy? How frequently should I C-bet if I don't have much information on the villain.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote
05-23-2015 , 08:24 PM
With no read on villains? If it was heads up I would c-bet around half the time and just check about half the time. As you add more villains, c-bet less. With the ace high flop my c-betting goes down fast, I probably only c-bet with 2 villains around 1/4 of the time and 3+ probably just give up. It is just too likely somebody has an ace when it's multiway.

Wet flops are really situational, because it depends on stack sizes, villains, and what back door potential your hand has. Heads up you should c-bet at least some of the time, but how often varies widely. Multiway, if your hand isn't helped by the flop then just check and see what develops on turn is usually best.
1/2 nl set vs draws and folding flush Quote

      
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