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1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? 1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet?

03-13-2015 , 05:24 PM
Hero is UTG with a stack of 155 with 2 2 Hero has been in 4 orbits and had folded jacks to main villain in an earlier hand after he 3 a turn against a looser player. Other than that I folded every hand.


Villain 1 is mid position with about 180.
Villain 2 is OTB with about 60.
Villain 3 is SB with about 160.
Villain 4 is BB with 180- he bought in short and won a couple pots before this hand. Saw him lose a pot in mid position with K9o going for a gutshot against a guy with QQ in late position with a stack of only 70.

Hero opens with a 7 dollar bet.
all these villains call.

pot: 38 Flop: 3 A 4 rainbow.

C-Bet here thinking I was representing an A
Hero C-bets 21 .
mid folds,
Btn calls,
SB calls,
BB calls,

pot: 122 Turn: 2

Hero mistakenly bets 40 was going to bet 80 then thought about my stack size, then was going to just jam it all in. But put 40 over the line without saying anything and it would of been a string bet. (Not sure what I was thinking there, I usually just tell the dealer my intentions and then put the chips in after.)

3 folds

BB raises me all in

I call.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 05:35 PM
Sure you can C-bet this hand heads up, but you are up against FOUR other players, and between 8 cards, a C-bet is much less likely to work
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 05:35 PM
$7 isn't going to limit the field very often pre flop.

I wouldn't c-bet as a bluff vs. 4 opponents. Maybe as a semi-bluff w flush draw or OESD occasionally but pretty rarely.

AP, we have about $100 left and the pot is $280 so I'd make the crying call. Hope he has 2 pr or a big A. If he has the straight, we have some outs if the board pairs.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 06:28 PM
Why did you open for 7?
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve00007
Why did you open for 7?
Well, its probably a leak, but I usually open for 7 plus two for each limper
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 06:55 PM
But what were you trying to accomplish when you opened for 7?
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 07:37 PM
Ahh, well thin out the crowd. Exploit at tight image for those paying attention, which did work as it got rid of the looser players at the table as they know I fold alot. The poker community is tight in my community, players tend to share information freely amongst themselves and regulars...

So the Cbet on that wet board was meant to exploit that image and show strength. However with small pockets I play to balance out my image a bit and set my own price for set mining. Usually I dont c-bet in this situation...
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 07:42 PM
Every decision you made should be replaced with a check or fold, as applicable.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
Every decision you made should be replaced with a check or fold, as applicable.


This I do think... With those small pocket pairs I'll open any position to set my price to set mine and other reasons... Just an unusual hand cause I chose to Cbet for some reason... Trial by fire as its been said haha
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 08:54 PM
Exploiting a tight image in EP is fine, but a few things to keep in mind:

1. We need to raise an amount that will get us no more than 1-2 callers. With a large MW pot, it's much less likely we'll win w/o showdown, and much less likely we'll win with 1 pair.

2. When we get several callers, cbets are way less likely to go through. Cbetting air into 4 players is almost always burning money. HU, cbetting A-high flops is great, because a big part of an opponent's range is WB our range and it's super obvious to him. But against 4 players, someone usually has an ace and isn't folding it.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:02 PM
I think you played the flop poorly and the tun correctly. Preflop is bad if yoru goal is to limit the field. If your goal is to make it 7 to get a big multi way pot and avoid someone opening to 10 or 12 that is good. Otherwise just limp this.

This is a set mine. Get in the hand as cheaply as possible pre and fold almost every non set flop.

Flop bet is really bad. Live 1/2 players are stations and can't fold an ace. You are turning your hand into a semi bluff here. Only card you love is the 5. When you hit your set now you are paying off a5 56. You don't love life against hands getting it in. And there are so much better parts of your range to bluff with.

When you turn the set it is completely player dependent. Most players with a strong ace aren't re-raising here, but sometimes 1/2 players do weird stuff so I don't want to remove ax from villains range completely. But you are against straits and air here most of the time.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S
Exploiting a tight image in EP is fine, but a few things to keep in mind:

1. We need to raise an amount that will get us no more than 1-2 callers. With a large MW pot, it's much less likely we'll win w/o showdown, and much less likely we'll win with 1 pair.

2. When we get several callers, cbets are way less likely to go through. Cbetting air into 4 players is almost always burning money. HU, cbetting A-high flops is great, because a big part of an opponent's range is WB our range and it's super obvious to him. But against 4 players, someone usually has an ace and isn't folding it.
Don't try to limit the field with low pocket pairs. That makes no sense. You want the most players in when you flop bingo and want to get in as cheaply as possible.

If you miss and are hu or 3 way this is the worst part of your range to barrel with. Very few extra outs aside from your 2 outer on most board. So you are just turning your hand into a bluff every time.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:06 PM
its 1/2 guys. The name of the game is flop bingo and get paid. Bet with your strong hands fold your weak. Play position. It really is that simple.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:27 PM
If we're going to setmine with 22 UTG in a 1/2 game, we should just limp. But OP said he's trying to exploit a tight image. I can only assume that means getting fold equity, which we're never going to have with a small raise and multiple callers.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:28 PM
I wouldn't choose 22 as a hand to do this with, fwiw.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 09:33 PM
For some tables where 3 betting is exclusively KK+ and where the majority of pots are being opened to 10-12$ or wtv, it may be optimal to open small PP's for an amount like 7$.

The reasoning being that we will still get many callers and almost never get raised, but we will only have to put in 7$ instead of an amount that is likely higher.

Obviously there are other factors to consider, it depends
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankTheBunny
its 1/2 guys. The name of the game is flop bingo and get paid. Bet with your strong hands fold your weak. Play position. It really is that simple.
It is that simple, true. However when it comes to small pockets you say get to the flop as cheap as possible if I'm in EP i favor betting first rather than limping.

Limping seems to scream Small PP's to the regulars I play with. And if action gets out of control Pre then chuck your cards and cry when you flop your set oh well....

It was the c-bet I wasnt so sure on for some reason.. I knew it was a bad play.

Last edited by Spudday; 03-13-2015 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Missed info
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.M.O.U.
For some tables where 3 betting is exclusively KK+ and where the majority of pots are being opened to 10-12$ or wtv, it may be optimal to open small PP's for an amount like 7$.

The reasoning being that we will still get many callers and almost never get raised, but we will only have to put in 7$ instead of an amount that is likely higher.

Obviously there are other factors to consider, it depends
Where the majority of pots are being opened, it's optimal to fold 22 because it's only good when it flops a set, and there's no reason to think you can get paid by random hands that have shown no strength in the rare instances where you do flop a set.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-13-2015 , 10:40 PM
Ahh good advice here. I'll have to mull over my opening range in EP,
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-14-2015 , 02:46 AM
A few leaks:

1) Bet bigger pre flop if u want to open 22 with a tight image.

2) check flop. Cbeting in multiway pot is burning money. Always.

3) snap fold turn. This is such a scary board. Villain most likely hit a straight. Just fold.

4)
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-14-2015 , 03:22 AM
Raising preflop but playing flop correctly > folding preflop > raising preflop and then cbetting a 5-way A-high flop
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-14-2015 , 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudday
Ahh, well thin out the crowd. Exploit at tight image for those paying attention, which did work as it got rid of the looser players at the table as they know I fold alot. The poker community is tight in my community, players tend to share information freely amongst themselves and regulars...

So the Cbet on that wet board was meant to exploit that image and show strength. However with small pockets I play to balance out my image a bit and set my own price for set mining. Usually I dont c-bet in this situation...
If I'm set mining I want the loose players staying in the hand, and not folding. The loose players are the ones most likely to pay us off when we hit a set. I also want more players in the hand to increase the chances that I get paid off.

Raising also cuts down on our implied odds.

People love to play aces so I don't like the c-bet on a board with an ace into multiple opponents. It's just too likely that someone has an ace.
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-14-2015 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
Where the majority of pots are being opened, it's optimal to fold 22 because it's only good when it flops a set, and there's no reason to think you can get paid by random hands that have shown no strength in the rare instances where you do flop a set.
No reason? I would think the fact it's a 1-2 NL game would be one reason because players at this level will pay off too much.

Do you regularly fold pocket pairs to raises in these games?
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote
03-14-2015 , 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve00007
No reason? I would think the fact it's a 1-2 NL game would be one reason because players at this level will pay off too much.

Do you regularly fold pocket pairs to raises in these games?
This here is true, the majority of the money I make playing is from in act flopping sets. The thing I'm thinking of and something that I have read on this site a while back, discusses opening in EP with any pocket pair. Isnt limp calling a bad idea most of the time? At what point do you start opening and stop folding? 99+?
1/2 NL, pocket 2's... Bad C-Bet? Quote

      
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