Laggy V has been very active, opening wide and showing down some weak hands for wins. 10-5suited for a river flush, weird turned 2 pair, etc. Very wide range. Likes to try to outplay opponents.

One example that stood out - Short stacked (for the table at the time) relatively tight player ($175 stack) opens UTG+1 for $15. To me, this meant a big hand from how he had been patiently playing. Not dead on AA, but close.

Laggy V inquires how much behind, hears $160 from the dealer, and calls. 4 way to the flop: $60 KQ9. Tight first to act player best $25, Laggy V next to act raises to $125 total. Folds around to tight play who moans and groans. He asks the time honored question - if I fold, will you show? Laggy V taunts a bit and then says - OK man, just this once. I'll show ya. Tight player folds AA face up (no spade) and Laggy V shows 62.

The table went on to praise Laggy V for his phenomenal play, with the exception of the tight player, who politely excused himself to go chain smoke for a while as he cursed under his breath.

On to the hand in question... Effective stacks $500.

One limp to Laggy V who opens in CO to $15.

Hero 3 bets on BTN with KQ to $45.

Laggy V calls.

Flop: $95 742

Laggy V leads for $12. Hero had planned on V C-betting regardless of flop, and feels great about this flop, so Hero raises to $45.

Uh oh, Laggy V snap calls.

Turn: $185 10

Laggy V bets $21, Hero picked up a back door flush draw and decides to just call.

River: $227 3

Laggy V bets $21 - Hero?

Fold river. Once he calls the flop raise and then leads turn he has a pair+ or is drawing. The straight draws either got there or hit a single pair that beats you. It is doubtful you can raise him off a hand on river, because a decent chunk of his range is two pair+ and even single pairs call a lot because a river raise looks FOS here. You can't even call river because there are so few whiffed draws in his range, and some of those are ace high wheel draws that beat you anyway.

If he is calling the flop raise and then betting with random overcards then you need to upgrade villain from LAG to maniac. That requires a different play style, get into hands cheap by flatting his raises and then play for pure value. Against a maniac just flat his preflop raise with KQs most of the time and fold flop every time. Let him win a lot of small pots and aim to win the big ones.

Thanks for your response QuadJ - Any case for leaving it alone on the Turn, or maybe even raising Turn as a last ditch effort?

As played, I'd fold the river, but given the pot size I don't think it could be a big mistake to call.

I think you played the turn fine. You picked up a draw and your two overcards are probably still live, so I think you're getting the odds here.

I do think you made a mistake by raising the flop. This seems like a great chance to play pot control. Yes, your hand is probably ahead of his range, but it's not something you want to risk your stack on. Also, you didn't mention anything specifically, but does he fold to raises normally? It seems like this guy is going to want to play with just about anything. If so, you have very little fold equity here, which is all the more reason to call and try to get to showdown cheaply.

Thanks for your input TheBenfer. I kind of agree that the flop was a misstep. Yet, my plan was Villain would be any flop regardless, so when he did, I should raise (sort of a minimum amount) when I didn't hit a pair. When he snap called, it left me stumped.

Let's put it this way - I truly didn't think I was gonna win by showdown. If I had AK, I might think that, but given V's tendencies, I was concerned I was beat by almost any pair.

You thoughts on fold equity are vey valid. I'm not sure this V ever folds. A great idea I will take into consideration for the future.

o, V bets flop, calls a min-raise (pretty much), and leads Turn. Considering he's wild, what do we do with two overs? I might have just answered my own question by writing it out, but what ideas might be out there in the "fight back and take it" camp?

The flop raise is pointless. Either make it a big raise or call and take the cheap opportunity to draw.

Ok, what sizing would be best? Thanks.

Pre-flop play versus this type of player is ok but remember he can have a hand and so if he calls or 4-bets he's most likely ahead. However, his call of your 3-bet suggests his holding isn't very strong and so includes pairs and weak aces. Your flop raise isn't going to get this player to fold any made hand or ace or draw and so has you putting in more money behind most of the time (assuming he'd fold some missed flops). By calling his flop bet you do relinquish the initiative but calling from position gives you the opportunity to control the pot and let him bet with worse hands on the turn (if there are any left in his range based on flop action). Your call of his lead on the turn with his aggression (pf open raise and flop donk bet and call of your flop raise) and your hand (15 outs) is correct. If you raise the turn it's unlikely that this opponent folds any made hands (which he likely has considering his flop call) and so you'll be putting money in a bloated pot with you most likely behind (considering he called your flop raise). What's your plan if he re-raises your turn raise? Calling the turn might prompt him make what he thinks is a value bet on the river and then call your raise when you make your hand. Calling the river is tempting, 21:248 or ~11:1, but a little tricky in this spot. It's true that he bluffed and was rewarded with the pot and table accolades but would he be bluffing so soon again or is it more likely you call and he shows two pair and says something like "nobody ever thinks I have a hand." Against this villain for that price on that board calling isn't terrible but that small river bet along with his actions in the hand seems like a strangely sized value bet or a blocking bet and either way he's a made hand. Based on your line raising the river against this player after this action doesn't seem credible but considering that small river bet it's unlikely that he's holding a strong hand (unless he's leveling you). Since the pot is laying you such big odds calling seems better than folding for information purposes and raising the river is likely the worst choice. It's true this player is trying to give you his money but he's hard to outplay because he won't fold and so isn't it a better idea to be in position with a decent holding and value bet this player all day then trying to pick off his bluffs?

grunch: call

only cause of the price. probably beat and not sure you can push him off his hand even with an all-in so i'd essentially give up... but i'd probably pay just to see for 21 bucks.

i think you played fine up until this point. his flop bet was stupid and you took your shot. you picked up your draw on the turn got a good price to see the river. sucks you didn't hit anything.

Raise flop to $85. You made the mistake of raising based on his bet size instead of pot size. Would you raise an overpair here to $45? Probably not. As played you should raise turn to like $165. Looks like he has a draw and keeps throwing out blocking bets.

The idea of bettting/raising these super loose villains on all flops is attractive but has a problem. Your not the only person they play, so they are used to seeing flop bet/raises a lot. These loose players are going to call on the flop more then you would like. Because of this, you mostly want to c-bet or bluff them less then you would against a tight player.

If you are going to bet turn you need to bet like you have an JJ+ and want to price out draws. With multiple possible straight and flush draws, something like $100-$125 looks right. Against a LAG then turn is an OK board for a second barrel because you picked up some equity but I think it's too expensive at this point. The preflop raise and flop raise has made the pot too big for another raise. Particularly because your villain sounds like he could be maniac and/or stationary and trying to bet those types off pots is bad. This is a situation where you need to pin down how your villain plays and how they respond to aggression. If villain is actually a loose chaser, who will chase any draw to river but can give up on river when they miss, call turn and call/raise river might even be right.

Thanks al, your input is much appreciated. Thing is I wonder if these LAGs deal with thinking players much. Let's say 1 out of 10 they do (one for every table they play), do they in fact catch serious resistance from non fit-or-fold players?

I'd bet not often, even from reasonably adept players. For the hand, if I could do it over again...

He bet weakly OTF, I raised, he snap called. Uh oh - hence "he's been here before and ain't scared".

OTT, he leads for a similarly small bet. In retrospect, I truly question what he might have here. Could be a bet to induce; yet was he that capable? Could be a block bet, but the flop was so low and random - did he really want t get involved with a 3 bet pot out of position to spike garbage? And if he spiked, wouldn't he fire bigger?

I call turn, river is more of the same - tiny bet in relation to pot size. Is it weak? Or strong trying to induce given tendencies of V? Would anyone bomb the turn here?

Since we both have a decent amount of money in front - would anyone advocate a big river raise?

Not really. I'm sure it will win some of the time, but a lot of your comments in this thread seem to focus on winning the hand. Remember that your goal is to win money. Sure, a big river bet might scare him off, but there is no way you win if he calls so you have to decide what portion of his range is ahead of you here but will fold to a bet. I'm thinking not much at this point, but it depends on whether the villain is a thinking LAG or just a maniac. Your description makes him sound like a maniac, so I'd lean toward dumping this one.

I usually find that the best way to counter these types of players (when there are only 1-2) is to see cheap flops and make them pay when you hit your hand. Getting involved in bluff games while deep stacked with maniacs is not a place I want to be unless I feel very comfortable with reads.

If you want to try to win the pot now, something around pot size. Not sure why you're puzzled that a lag villain would call for $33 when there's $150 in the pot after your raise. He didn't fold to your preflop 3b.

I'm not saying that bluff raising the flop is the best action, but that obviously he's going to turbo call that small raise if he has any pair or draw. He might even call the bigger raise, in which case your best action is to take the cheap drawing opportunity.

After you missed the flop, I'd fold to the raise. It's was a terrible flop for you. I'd lay this hand down early and wait for a better opportunity to beat or stack Laggy V.

You're going to get his money if he stays at the table long enough. I think any good player at the table would be drooling and isolating him He's dead money if he's playing as described and you will get better opportunities.