1/2 KJs - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Um, isn't this like the worst idea? There's already $84 dollars in the pot; raising it to $36 gives the first of four guys immediate odds of 5:1. What, we want a 5-way pot for a million dollars to the turn with a pair of Jacks?

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05-28-2010 , 11:24 AM

#28

actionzip54

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Originally Posted by btortori

Well there are three decisions here raise call or fold. Folding is out of the question and calling seems too weak. I think you are giving away too much by just calling. You need to charge the villians drawing on you. I say raise but thats just my opinion

Then what do we do if a villian shoves? Fold? I promise if we raise this then get repopped we always have a worse hand. I think a r/f line here is worse than calling.

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05-28-2010 , 11:24 AM

#29

gobbledygeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by riverfish1

I'm shoving here every time. Any other way is lol. We call and there are like 10 cards that don't suck.

Do we have to try to win every big pot (and risk our stack) just cuz we've got top pair? Even though it may be difficult to do against such a large field, is there anything wrong with attempting to check it down? We've got little money invested and if our hand happens to be best (which it may not) and holds up, we win quite a lot for our relatively small investment and don't have to risk the farm to do so.

GjustthinkingoutloudG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 05-28-2010 at 11:39 AM.

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05-28-2010 , 11:30 AM

#30

actionzip54

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Quote:

Originally Posted by riverfish1

I'm shoving here every time. Any other way is lol. We call and there are like 10 cards that don't suck.

Shoving= worst line. I really want to know what is worse that you guys see calling an overbet shove? QJ? ya right.

Will someone poker stove a range with QJ, JT, J9, AJ, all the two pair hands, all the sets, and all the possible draws assuming the draws are dumb enough to call a big AI raise here. I cant do this cause I am at work.

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05-28-2010 , 11:38 AM

#31

gobbledygeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzip54

I really want to know what is worse that you guys see calling an overbet shove?

I think the shovers are targetting flush draws / straight draws. As an interesting side point, even though I don't think the first draw caller will have the odds, I believe the second+ caller will be getting pretty close, which will actually end up giving the first caller correct odds (I'm too lazy to do the math right now).

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05-28-2010 , 11:48 AM

#32

Hendricks433

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Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzip54

have you ever played live 1/2? they call with all sorts of trash and the only person we are really worried about is BB.

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05-28-2010 , 11:49 AM

#33

2OutsNoProb

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Originally Posted by s.boxer

Uh I don't know what 1/2 games you play in, but literally every two pair combo is in someone's range here. I guarantee at least one person would call 84s preflop so you can't just remove it from their range because you wouldn't play it that way. Everyone here could have all two pair and set combos so you HAVE to include these in the ranges. You can't just say "no one would play x hand this bad, therefore they can't have it" because it's a live 1/2 game and they clearly can and DO play them that badly.

If you assume that they are good enough not to slowplay sets/two pair or call with 84s preflop, then what makes you think they are bad enough to call a huge overbet shove in a multiway pot with just a bare flush draw or OESD?

Either everyone in OPs game is a fish and it's possible someone has a monster in this multiway flop, or they're all good and won't call that huge shove with anything worse than JK.

I'm sorry but in practice it simply isn't reasonable to slow down and never play a big pot with a one pair hand simply because someone MIGHT have a junky two pair in their range.

They may or may not call with draws if we shove. If they do, we hope to fade and win a huge pot, but winning the pot outright on the flop isn't the worst thing in the world, either, considering it would be uncontested and it's already a sizable number of BB's.

The shove in all honesty isn't that huge. We can't very well make it $70 and then fold.

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05-28-2010 , 11:52 AM

#34

2OutsNoProb

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Originally Posted by actionzip54

Shoving is the only reasonable raise size we can make. Making it $40 is too small in relation to the pot, and if we make it $65 or $70 etc we can't fold to a shove. We move it in here to charge draws the maximum price, to potentially win a sizable uncontested pot, and to possibly stack some dumb hand that calls like QJ or JT .

It really is silly to slow down here because we might run into "two pair". For the love of God, the board is J84. By this logic we would slow down on every single board in existence because someone could have "two pair".

If we get setted, so be it. It isn't likely given the preflop and flop actions.

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05-28-2010 , 12:07 PM

#35

actionzip54

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Grunch. I am going to conceded to some of the raising arguements because i just ran some equity calculations on against villians ranges and IF we include QJ, JT, and other draws we are ahead of a single villians range. However if we start excluding hands, i.e. any of these players are decent enough to fold a QJ JT to a AI shove, then are equity swings in the oppostie direction.

For arguements sake I'am shoving if these guys are super fishy. Also I only ran this against only one villian so with multiple opponents our equity decreases cause it makes it more likely that someone holds a hand better than TPKK.

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05-28-2010 , 12:21 PM

#36

HamerHead69Baby

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 582

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb

Shove. The three calls mean nothing, they have draws or very marginal hands, they're calling because the BB is (sm)all-in

I don't think I like shoving here... even bad players will fold there flush draws to an AI shove. I make it 72 or fold.

I know a lot of people will say folding is terrible here, but every now and then I'll get that gut feeling that "something is up" in these spots and just decide to bow out. But like I said, 80% of the time I'm raising here and calling an AI.

As for raising to 72. If one person calls I will pretty much get it in on any turn here... however if everyone calls I check most turns (except ultra safe cards) and hope a villain doesn't suck out some weird two pair on me.

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05-28-2010 , 12:21 PM

#37

riverfish1

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

we are shoving to collect all the dead money and protect/get value out of draws (yes we can do both, especially with this many players on this wet of a board).

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Originally Posted by actionzip54

lol. Plenty of crap Js and FDs are calling. And we're forcing out a bunch of weak speculative hands and picking up dead money.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb

this. We can't raise here given pot/stack sizes. So we have to shove.

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05-28-2010 , 12:24 PM

#38

riverfish1

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Originally Posted by HamerHead69Baby

You make it 72 and get 1 caller. Now you have 111 behind in a pot of 216. What do you do on the 8 billion crap turn cards?

You make it 72 and get 2 callers. Now you have 111 behind in a pot of 288. What do you do on the 8 billion crap turn cards?

Given STP ratios, non-shove raising simply isn't feasable. Folding is weak. Calling basically just ensures you're going to get drawn out on with that many people in the pot.

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05-28-2010 , 01:18 PM

#39

aggo

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I'd like to reiterate that shoving here is horrific imo.

You're risking 190 to win 260 and we're never crushing vs any reasonably-light calling range (even if you put in 2undercard FDs).

If there was like $120 dead in the middle, then shoving is probably the best play, but there isn't nearly enough dead money in the middle to advocate shoving here.

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05-28-2010 , 01:22 PM

#40

actionzip54

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aggo

I agree with this totally. IF our opponents are uber fish, who will call almost ATC, though I think you can justify a shove but against 4 opponents meh even that is a big maybe.

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05-28-2010 , 01:22 PM

#41

Spawnstar

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Thanks for all the comments guys.

Basically I think that a raise is the best option as folding is crazy and calling is a guaranteed way of getting drawn out on.

The problem is there isn't really a raise size that won't commit you to the hand. If you raise to less than 50 then you get a lot of callers, and if you raise to 50 or more you can't really fold the turn.

I think it is really close between raising to say 60 or shoving as long as you realise you can't fold any turn as you are committed to the hand.

Anyway, for those interested in the results here they are:

Spoiler:

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05-28-2010 , 01:23 PM

#42

HamerHead69Baby

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Quote:

Originally Posted by riverfish1

You make it 72 and get 1 caller. Now you have 111 behind in a pot of 216. What do you do on the 8 billion crap turn cards?

I'm getting it in against a single opponent's range here no mater what the turn

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05-28-2010 , 01:27 PM

#43

HamerHead69Baby

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Quote:

Originally Posted by riverfish1

You make it 72 and get 2 callers. Now you have 111 behind in a pot of 288. What do you do on the 8 billion crap turn cards?

It depends exactly what the turn card is. I'm not betting a diamond, Q or 7, but I think I still get it in with any other cards. Same plan on the rvr. And if the rvr whiffs again and a villain leads into me I'm calling

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05-28-2010 , 01:28 PM

#44

aggo

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mathematically shoving is a +EV play against these two ppl, but when you shove you totally remove any positional or postflop advantage you have vs villains. Especially when they just call hands that aren't calling shoves with on the flop.

WHo knows if villain wouldve called off 100bbs on the flop with j9, but raising there underscores how much more value there is in just value raising vs a ridiculously wide range that you are always ahead of.

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05-28-2010 , 01:28 PM

#45

HamerHead69Baby

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ps. didn't read spoiler until after my posts

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05-28-2010 , 01:42 PM

#46

gobbledygeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spawnstar

and calling is a guaranteed way of getting drawn out on.

Why are we so concerned about getting drawn out on? Yes, there is a good chance we're going to get drawn out on in this multi-way pot. So what. We've only invested $19 into this pot as have 4 others and multi-way our hand is fairly mediocre. It might be difficult to get this pot checked down but maybe it does and when we hold up we scoop a profit 4 times our investment without putting any real chips at risk.

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05-28-2010 , 02:21 PM

#47

2OutsNoProb

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Originally Posted by aggo

If we held QQ here, virtually every single person in this thread would be saying to shove. QQ and KJ are virtually the same hand on this board, given that the difference between the two is only beating one hand (AJ, and not tying KJ). It's unlikely anyone has AJ due to the flop action, so QQ = KJ here.

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05-28-2010 , 02:22 PM

#48

2OutsNoProb

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

The idea in competitive gaming is generally to attempt to win and apply strategy to that effect. Calling so that we don't have to risk a ton because we expect to lose would seemingly not fit this.