I'll try to break the monotony of AA hands . . . sorry if this obv or too fishy.

This table: To my right three college aged, online poker junkie young gun types (all have stacks of $200-$300). To my left are several calling stations . . . one to my immediate left is an ATM ($300). Only other player of note is an older Asian man to the left of the calling stations ($750) who often raises to $17 with multiple limpers and he also seems to call raises of this size more than he should but is mainly focused on playing the ATM. He isn't terribly aggressive and seems to v-bet smallish wanting and play pot control with showdown value - - he's been in every 3rd hand and shown down half of them, all without any really big bets. I have about $350.

I have JTs UTG and limp. All but one limp to a young gun on the button who raises to $20. Another young gun in SB calls. I figure the ATM will call, the older Asian guy and maybe 1-2 more, so I call figuring I'm getting the odds necessary to see the flop. ATM and older Asian guy call, all others fold, we go to flop five handed.

Flop: 8 T T rainbow [pot ~$100]
I bet $30. Thinking try to build a big multiway pot on the flop then check/shove the turn. My hope was $30 is small enough to look like I am trying to steal it cheap and if ATM calls, it might cascade. I didn't want this to check to the pre raiser on the button who'll probably make 2/3 - psb with his QQ+ since it seems like everyone else would fold to that and I won't get further action from him once I call. ATM calls, older Asian guy calls, everyone else folds.

Turn: 3 [pot ~$200]
Change of plans with only ATM and Asian guy. They have a comfortable betting pattern between them of small bets vs. pot size. I bet $50, thinking if I can keep ATM in the hand Asian guy might come along. ATM folds, Asian guy calls. I now start to worry what he has.

River: 5 (don't remember suits but no FD) [pot ~$300]
At this point, I have no idea how to play this. I figure I will continue with the sort of action Villain seems comfortable with and bet another $50 thinking he'll pay me with worse and if he raises I am definitely a dead dog.

?s:
- Preflop call okay? Seemed like a no-brainer given likely pot & impl odds. It def pissed off the young gun pre raiser ("can't believe you called my $20 with that ****")
- Check/shove and change of plans to leading w/ small bets turn & river?

bet bigger on each streets
by betting so small you are screaming strength
i would at least shove river if you put villain on overpairs

Fold preflop (the first time).

id bet 80-100$ for value also to discourage bluff-shoves. as played i really see like 0% chance of villain shoving over this. and if he does i would shrug fold.

checking is bad imo, missing too much value from a calling station

In a game where stacks are this deep, I would raise preflop here. You have a good hand and if you get 3bet, you're usually not going to be dominated here (assuming they have a standard 3bet range of TT+/AQ+, making you play comfortably with 1 pair type hands, although they could have AJ..). Also, you can call a 3bet quite fine. Also by raising preflop, you merge your raising utg pfr range to not just JJ+/AK/AQs.

On to postflop:

I am not sure if I like the donk lead. Especially on a rainbow board. This means I have trips a large % of the time. Expect to get called once by JJ+ and then get no more action if you follow up. I like a check/call here. Only real hand you have to be worried about is 97/J9 if the flop goes c/c and another person calls, and since you have JT, the J turn for the 97 makes you a boat, so u don't have to worry about that, the only "scary" turn card(s) are a 6/Q. And even vs a turned straight you have 10 outs.

Turn is fine, given the action, but I would bet a bit bigger. Not sure how many Tx and 8x and pairs are in Asian and ATM's range, but I'd bet enough for value/protection and make sure I get called at least once.. I think 50 is too little in a pot like this.. No reason to bet 50 when they will call 80 (if they call 50, they'll call 80 etc)..

River, I'd bet for value. Not sure on the sizing, but enough to get value and fold if raised (assuming a shove here is never a worse T).

Dango: I put the preflop raiser on overpairs but he folded on the flop. The villain limped from MP, then called the pre raise after 3 other callers. He could have been ATC given past play. Seems like a shoving the river just folds worse and gets called by better. Why is shoving the river a better play here? Not trying to be argumentative, just need to understand the logic.

Thanks Borderline. Never thought of raising this UTG. Your point on not being dominated by typical 3b range is interesting. Never would have occurred to me. Yep, I kinda kicked myself for the donk. It made sense when I grabbed the chips but hated it when the pre raiser folded.

I'm going to hijack my own thread a bit. When reviewing this hand I thought the most interesting question was whether I was getting good enough odds to call the preflop raise assuming it would be 4-5 handed. I don't really know the right way to judge proper calling odds for SCs in a multiway pot. Here, I figured I'd have 3-4 opponents each with effective stacks of 10-20x the raise. Heads up or 3 way, I'll use 5/10 rule for PP and more like 4/8 for SCs. How do you judge for more opponents?

ignore my shoving comment since i thought villain is initial raiser
because of the smallish bet sizing, it allows drawing hands to come in at a good price
therefore bet bigger on flop and turn
so villain's range is (j9, 97, 8x, 10x, 88, qj)
if you put villain on those straight draws, betting small(30-50) on river induces a bluff raise, which is ++++EV when you call
if you put villain on made hands, 8x or better
bet 100-150 to get value and fold to shove

"He isn't terribly aggressive and seems to v-bet smallish wanting and play pot control with showdown value"
i think betting 100-150$ is the optimal line against his most likely pot control lines
100-150$ bet is in his comfort zone and will likely pay you off with worse

but because it feels so awkward to shove this river
i'd definitely bet alot bigger on flop + turn

if i were villain with hands like 88 i definitely raising flop
if a10 or k10, i'd put in a raise flop or turn
only 108 makes sense for call call and shove for villain
with this line of thought, villain is mostly likely pot controlling a weaker 10
of course all this is just my standard line of thought
villain can be trappy and plays otherwise

so it seems like an easy valuebet around 100-150

LOL? As played V-bet 1/2 pot.

I really don't like falling into any sort of small betting pattern out of fear that opponents will fold. Keep in mind that many of the older players grew up on stud or limit holdem and they bet 25 into a 100 pot just because that is sorta consistent with the way they were hard wired. But just because they won't bet doesn't mean they won't call a proper darn bet. Hammer the pot for value. If they come over the top then worry, else valuetown them not nickle and dime them.

That being said, I never lead this flop. As played you have to bet that turn harder imo.

"I have JTs UTG and limp"

lol. I think you played almost every street bad. At least you won i guess.

I actually really like the way you played your hand, and I think the logic behind it is good. From early position I don't mind limping here in order to not get raised off your hand by someone down the line, although I tend to raise here.
Picking up on the betting habits of the players at the table is important, and it seems like you have figured out how to get a few calls here with a lesser hand. I don't really understand the people saying to hammer this pot, because given his stack size and the size of the pot already, if he faces huge action to his big bets hes gonna feel committed with a hand that he doesn't really beat anything but a poorly played two pair with.

Say you lead 50-60 on the flop and get those two calls. Now you have a 250 pot and 300 left, seems like a tough spot to me. I would assume that someone at least has a ten at that point, which in most cases you don't beat, but you still are stuck making a huge bet.
If you get HU with someone, they won't call a larger bet with their medium pair (can't really see an overpair except for perhaps JJ) when you fire out big on the turn, or he will call if he has a better hand IMO, but by creating a big pot you are forced to make a larger bet. I guess in summary I think you are able to get value from worse hands by betting smaller more often then you would by betting bigger, while at the same time being able to get away from the hand if you are behind whereas if you bet bigger you end up losing more/getting stacked.

Raising here preflop is generally bad idea live I think. I'm confused about what you're suggesting with the 3bet stuff too... you're not suggesting that we bet this utg, and then if we get 3 bet we call are you?

Merging ranges is useless here.

Definitely not folding to a 3bet 180bb deep.

I guess it really depends on the bet sizing in the game, but I'd say in general that's a huge leak.

WTF?! Anyone else think this is the opposite of correcf/ accurate/ true/ logical/ rational/ sane?!

Seems like consensus is leading flop was bad (yep, I kicked myself as soon as the pre raiser folded), larger bet on turn & river. At the time, I didn't give enough thought to the odds I was giving for a straight draw. I was really focused on the idea that I was probably against Tx and that it was probably a coin flip on the kicker. All I can say on bet sizing is that I was:
1 - going by my table read and
2 - didn't want to get committed here . . . I thought I should play this like top pair med kicker and was giving myself the option to get away with most of my stack intact.

On the river I was waiting for a min raise from Villian and I would have paid him to see the house or AT. I was surprised when he called & showed 86 and had to reassess my read on him . . . note to self, play him more. Overall, I just thought I played this fairly poorly and was grateful this was a really, really soft table.

I dunno, I think if you are betting bigger you won't get action from that hand at all. And I think the majority of two pair hands that a limp caller can have would always be folding to a big turn bet unless they fill up. Maybe 99 would pay you off some, thats about it.

Being OOP in a full-ring game really sucks, and considering that the better players at the table are in late position I'd probably let go of this preflop.

If you're going to play the hand you have to come in for a raise as it's much harder to get your whole stack in the middle in a limped pot. Playing post-flop gets pretty simple this way too as you should be pot controlling or folding top pair and middle pair hands, playing draws cheaply, hammering when you hit big and occasionally when you don't, and folding the rest.

If you think they'll call 30, figure out if they'll call 40 (they usually will). This way you can bet 65 or 70 on the turn and river in place of 50 and 50. That's a $50 boost right there.

Before you bet the river you must know if he's going to call with worse. If he's folding everything worse then obviously don't bet, etc. River seems fine provided you're actually willing to fold to a raise.

I think that leading the flop here is 100% correct, but your bet sizing should be for more.

@BlueGrass:
1 - Who is that in your avatar???
2 - Can you explain why you like leading the flop?

ATM is obviously the target, not the solid players behind, if you lead you widen his calling range rather than if the action checks to the button, he bets and you call. The fish is more likely to fold here.

There's also the chance that the button checks this back in a 4 way pot, even though it's a great board to cbet air, which loses you tons of value vs the fish.

My avatar is Alizee, French pop singer.

Thanks. My nights will be richer . . . poker advice helps too.