1/2 at AC

Positions:
UTG ($325)
Hero ($155)
CO ($450)

UTG bets $10, Hero In HJ (JJ) and opts to flats, CO raises to $20, UTG calls $10, Hero calls $10.

At this point in the game we are the three playing 95% of pots. UTG is a loud Caucasian playing close to every pot but doesn't raise too often. CO is Asian and is playing every single pot I'm in. Have seen him check back wet flop and raise turn. His cbet flop percentage is def low. Haven't seen him 3-bet too many pots so I am proceeding with caution.

Flop: Q74r
UTG checks, Hero thinks and checks, CO checks.

Turn: 8
UTG checks, Hero bets $35, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: Q
UTG checks, Hero??

Thoughts?

Given your read on CO's tendencies you should be checking the turn again. As played check river and see what happens.

Preflop - I think I 3bet like 85% of the time and call 15% of the time. Depends on the table dynamics, but I don't think HJ is late enough position to justify calling unless CO and BTN are consistently folding behind.

If UTG is playing every hand he'll likely call anyway unless your sole goal is to set-mine, you don't want this multi-way and you want position.

Flop - As played I like the check. Betting is only getting called by better, AK, or 56.
Turn - Fine
River - Did the turn card bring any backdoor flush outs? If yes, I would check/call. If no, I think I bet/fold. The former you get value out of CO hands that missed and are trying to take the pot. The latter, I think you still get called by 8, 99, TT, and maybe even a seven. Sometimes you'll get a hero call with AK. I'd bet ~$50.

Because you think he still could have the same range?

No bk door fd. Stack sizes are awkward.. if we bet 50 I believe we only have 50 behind.

That's only an issue if you think somebody will raise you all-in with a worse hand. 1) would either of these players do that 2) would they do that knowing your stack size left. With my experience at 1/2, the answer is no, so I would be able to fold easily if raised over and then just top off.

The other consideration is would you still get called by worse? My opinion is yes, but am curious for what others think.

Personally I think this is the perfect spot for a thin value bet.

they are in every pot so they like to call. so bet for value.

Yeah his flop checking range is pretty wide and you said he likes to raise a lot on the turn.

I would prob bet flop and for sure bet river as played. Neither of them should ever have a Q here.

Do you have a little better read on CO?

I think you really have to bet river.

seems like a check for me.

you make your money by betting and getting called. not by checking and hoping to pick off a bluff.

im aware boss (:

But just dont see them calling OTR with enough worse. UTG and the 3better can still have a ton of Qx combos and i dont assign them as many PP combos and random 8x 7x as ppl ITT are.

we only get value from 99 TT im not even sure all 8x 7x combo call or are even in their range.
77 88 makes boat and like a zillion Qx combos they can have.

the line the 3better took i doubt hes ever bluffing otr since he has no air.

to make river a bet they need to have a lot of 8x 7x in that case bet for sure never c/c

your thinking is certainly sound but from live play they can have most anything and will often call down just to see if you did hit the trips.
i would make a bet trying to get a seven or some smallish pair he might have to call me.

yeah i reread OP if they just clicking buttons they can have a ton of weird 8x 7x. so bet prints money

sounds like good game though ^^

This seems like a bet (the pot size is ~170, you've ~100 behind (awkward size) and so bet 70 which is ~40%psb) and if raised fold. Your opponents have no idea where you are because you played the hand so passively. The second queen on the board and the hand's action makes your hand likely the best and using similar logic it's possible that you could get called by worse holdings (1010, 99) but if you're raised you can comfortably fold.

Is it because the UTG player rarely raises that you chose not to 3 bet pf with JJ in position against a loose player? Weren't you concerned that your call might invite a few more players into the pot and then you're playing with a medium chip stack (77.5 bb), in a big pot, multi-way and oop with JJ? Along with limiting the field's size, wouldn't a 3-bet get you value for your big pair while also helping you to better determine the true strength of utg's hand? You played the hand in a non-standard way and with the hand's action and the board you should bet the river, which might get called by worse and if so, nh.

The asian guy seems to be more aware than the white guy. Either way they both play a ton of hands but this particular hand was weird. How much would u bet?

It is but I saw one hand where he did that against me, that was it.

Why bet flop? Def agree with other statements tho.

My reads are that he plays a ton of hands and that he plays his draws an combo draws aggressively.


Why?

Interesting point, I would tend to think so. The white guy is going to be calling a decent amount. He seemed to be calling my cbets an insane amount. Maybe not insane but too much lol.

since i wouldnt fear a bluff raise too much i would bet about a third of the pot. as i am trying to bet the amount a weak hand would call with.

as for the bluff raise part i dont like to bet to little as it induces someone to try and run me off. and i have better value by folding than catching bluffs on the end.

by betting smallish you induce a bluff raise because they can commit a lot less to accomplish that. thats why i like to be around pot size most bets, as that takes away many plays that aggressive players can make that are costly to you.

HU with CO I would c/c, his range contains a lot of draws that all missed and he seems like the type player who always/mostly bluffs when there's no other way he can win the hand.

But 3 way I think CO is much less likely to think a bluff will work, and tha'ts why I'd bet for value.

Sorry, I'm a little slow. You mean betting flop accomplishing a thin value bet? I think it'd be a bad move considering your sandwiched between two players with the preflop three bettor behind you and an early position initial raiser in front.

Too much of both of their combined range can hit this flop or be better than it to justify a bet IMO. The great part of cash games is that you're able to play more streets more often, using the players actions and reactions for information to narrow their ranges.

The hand ranges narrowed considerably after flop AND UTG turn action closed.

On the river you can rule out all Qx hands aside from
QQ, AA, KK, flopped sets, and many lines for the OESD.

I would actually be surprised to see a raise (edit** or even a better hand) on the river be anything other than QQ or a straight.

He's saying what is the difference of going for a thin value bet on the flop oppose to the river since it should accomplish the same thing? I think the difference is that we now have more information about our opponents hand strengths.