Moved over to this 1/2 table with ~$400

V is to my immediate left with ~$400.

Table seems like a standard loose/passive 3a.m. 1/2 game.

1 limp, Hero opens 88 to $12 in MP, 3 calls including V.

Flop ($50): J82r
I thought there were only 2 calls so decided to cbet 1/3rd pot of $36, which is $12, V raises to $40, I call, because no reason to 3b and scare away Jx on this type of board. Trying to look like a SD or two non-believing overs.

Turn ($130): 2x
Hero ? Keeping my story up and praying V continues putting the money in. So I check with an intention to c/c and lead blank rivers, unfortunately, V checks behind.

River ($130): 6x
Hero bets $80, V calls and MHIG.

I'm noticing a constant theme here. I'm unable to win entire stacks with these kind of hands OOP.

I know you guys will say "just bet/bet/bet 2/3rd to 3/4th pot on each street" to get the money in.. but it's 2017, and unless V is a complete idiot, most Vs call flop with TP but fold turn to the double barrel. And definitely to the triple. I say this from experience of double barreling with FDs and getting TPs to muck face up to me.

I kind of want to be unbalanced and NOT double barrel sets/monsters in these spots because they just fold too much in general. But they pay off a weird line like the above hand because "how can Hero have a set/boat the way he played it?"

However, the downside of this style is it's unable to win the most money.

No one is folding a decent J on the turn for $50 or $60. Just bet the turn small and then he's priced in on the river for a value bet. The 2 pairing the board is like the nuts. You might not get a stack but so many loose players are calling turn $60, river $100 as weak as a small PP. Can't miss the turn with a nutted hand, OOP that means bet 90+%.

Play harder and faster. With multiple callers (2 or 3, doesn't matter), I'm betting pot or more OTF, probably checking turn (if I get multiple callers again), then shoving river. I'm not ever a fan of that small ball crap in cash. Everyone knows that playing a pot with me is playing for stacks.

This is the new reality. Pure set mining is unprofitable. Villains are going to raise you on the flop with TP especially if there is no A nor K on the board because your range is obviously AK. Once you called the raise, they are going to shut down and maybe call a river bet because you might bluff.

It doesn't mean you are going to fold 88 pf, but you're going to need to play it differently than fit or fold.

Confused about why stacks don't go in, bets 1/3rd pot. Hm

Looks like you should be double barreling just about every hand if they always fold TP

You said 3 calls preflop so a pot of $50 on flop, not $36. In any case, bet more on flop. Aim for a normal c-bet size of 1/2 to 2/3 of pot. This is a dry flop but there are some middle straight draws so close to 2/3 pot is fine. Don't try to entice villains on the flop, the bad hands still fold, the good hands will call anyways and you give the draws a good price. Betting more on flop also cuts down the flop raises, which is actually more profitable in the long run because it keeps villain guessing on the turn.

After that it looks fine. You should normally bet turn but checking sometimes is OK also. If villains are consistently folding then start bluffing more. Just be sure you are bluffing villains with a fold button.

Don't plan on stacking villains consistently. Aim to play sets profitably. At 200BB deep villain shouldn't be calling 3 streets with less then AJ and even AJ isn't always a call unless you are super aggressive. As long as you can usually get more then 10 times your preflop raise when you hit and can steal some pots with c-bets/bluffs it will be profitable.

Remove betting 1/3 pot (which was actually 1/5 pot) from your repertoire. Either bet a normal amount or check.

Yeah, but stacks are rarely deep enough to take that risk regularly. Also, they fold TP to big double barrels but don't fold their flush or oes draw saws.

Guess I'm watching too much Doug Polk, Snowie or LATB? Dry board, middle set, 1/3 PSB lol.

But just a few hands ago, I called a PFR with 99 in CO, 4 way $40 flop came Ts9s4h and I bet $40 into $40 after 1 caller and PFR checked and some guy on BTN claimed he folded a FD!

This probably played into my mind when betting tiny here.

Lead flop for whatever sizing you'd lead with a J. Otherwise, I'd probably play same as you. We can't expect to always get stax in with a monster unless we're playing a maniac or have cultivated a maniacal image for ourselves. As Venice stated, there are fewer players ready to stack off with any piece of the board than there used to be. If you find yourself at a fit/fold table with the stack depth you have, begin pushing people's buttons like MatzahBall said. Basically, when you can't max out on value, it means you should start adjusting and max out on fold equity.

Also, @Johnny, I see how here we can bet normal, but do you really never bet less than 1/2? I use 1/3 bets consistently on paired rainbow flops, especially the disconnected ones like J33.

Big mistake losing track of the pot size, it likely cost you a clean 3 barrel.

Otherwise, well played once he raised. You wound up roughly getting 3 streets anyway because he's an idiot, so I'd feel pretty good about the result.

As far as flop sizing goes, if you were forced to choose a single flop sizing for your betting range, you would do best with 25, not more.

As played easy check river

Lol and watch him check behind?

So I would bet 30 OTF. If you get raised to 90 theres 230 in the pot OTT and you have 298 left. Bet 130 and Jx probably calls. River pot is now 558 and you have 148 left. He'll call 148 with Jx.

If they're folding TP to these kinds of bets you can bluff a lot more. I would double barrel any hand with the slightest amount of equity like a gutshot, overcards, etc.

And triple barrel on scary rivers

Never, ever, ever checking this river. Look, I understand the whole "worse cannot call" (I, of course think most people are way, way off in what they think can and will call bets), but I also think many players give away way too much information for free. If "worse can't call" and you are pretty sure you have the likely best hand, then bet and make em fold. Fundamentally, Holdem is a game of incomplete information, ffs make your opponents at least pay for that information!

EDIT: And if your idea is that V bets the river, well, I'm not trusting that with this table read.

Please explain. We basically have the nuts. Do we think villain is betting more than we will if we lead? Even if he bets sometimes is he calling a x/r?

btw, if your primary concern is about stacking off with sets, then go ahead and stop n go, then shove river. It's an uneven, face up fat value line 100% of the time, but I'd imagine you can still get turn calls a lot, rivers sometimes.

Don't worry so much about stacking people, just try and extract max value. Most of the time max value is not someone's entire stack. Let alone on a J822rb board.

I get where you're coming from, but there are a few problems here:
1) How often does Doug Polk play 4way pots? You can bet a bigger % of the pot when it's 4ways as opposed to HU.
2) Remember that you gain a much higher win rate by playing exploitative poker as opposed to GTO poker. When it's a 4way limp-called pot, people have clearly demonstrated that they're happy to be exploited, so take advantage of that. You can bet 75% pot here and get called by JTo and T7s.

I think my average pot won when flopping a set online is around 20BB's. Obviously live is a very different animal but assuming you can simply get ~200bb's in whenever flopping a set seems a bit ambitious, specially in these types of passive games. On this dry a board 60bb's seems more than an ok result.

As for the hand, i like the overall line. If you think people are folding too often to bigger barrels, i'd prefer checking the turn rather than going for a small flop bet. That way we can charge T9 a bit more when that hand has the most equity, and if a J hits on the turn, then we can play for stacks.

Betting or checking river is kinda villain dependent imo. Villain can rarely call our c/r, so he has to be betting T9 or air a lot, as well as his weaker J's. Vs an unknown or at a passive table i'd probably just bet.

Look man. You cant be afraid of check backs.





Checking to induce is the same thing as calling with a flush draw otf. Or calling a pocket pair pre. Its just a line you are taking because something will happen a certain percentage of the time (flush draw hits, pocket pair flops a set, or in the case of checking on river...villain bets).

There are obv tons of spots where leading is more profitable so dont go checking all rivers all of a sudden...but this is a pretty easy check/stuff.

OP asked how to stack villain. I gave him the only "as played" correct answer.

Not true. Give it a try. Its one of the best ways to stack people in live poker 2017. Or, x/r bluff rivers more. Then when you see how light you get called go back to only value x/r.

Oh, i have tried it, both value and bluffs, and I definitely might get called here by Jx
But i'm not playing this hand, OP is. And he/she might not even have any history with villain for such a dynamic to occur.

And again, if we are not getting called that often, villain needs to bluff quite a bit for a c/r to be more profitable then a bet.

Thanks. To be clear, are you saying checking the river is the most likely way to win stacks, or it is the most +EV move in general (as played)? The former seems obvious, but I wonder if the latter is true.

I think villain just checks back a lot, and when he bets, does he call a jam very often? We need him to bet/call an amount more than he would simply call on average to make checking superior.

So I played this hand yest at 1/2 betting out normal with flopped top set and got no value:

1/2,

V (whale itching to lose stack, shoving over my cbet on J hi board with A2 earlier and losing to my QQ, bet/shoving shoving T2o vs another guy on T97dd and holding, shoving middle pairs, etc.) straddles $5 OTB like he does every hand ($400 eff)

Folds to LJ who limps,
H in HJ raises to $25 with AA,
V calls OTB, LJ calls.

Flop ($78): A97r
Check, H bets $40, both fold.

Wow, so you're saying you flopped a set of aces and some whale who plays every single hand actually DIDN'T hit this flop? Not even bottom pair? Really? That blows my mind.

You must be the most unlucky player in the history of poker.