How would you play this?
SB has shown to be loose but also shown some really strong hands.
we're are both sitting with about 300.

5 limps around to the SB
SB raises to 12
I call
2 calls behind
MP shoves for 64
SB calls
I ?????

I would likely 3bet pre flop.
As played I think that I will jam over top. I think that if he has AA/KK he will isolate the all in player with a 4bet.
So, I think that we are flipping at worst here, and we may get him to fold out TT/JJ here a decent portion of the time.

reshove.

top of his range should be QQ here and that might be a stretch due to pf sizing. If he does have QQ it's definitely +EV to shove with all the dead money. You can likely get him to fold 99-JJ type hands and might fold out AK if he's nitty. If he wants to get married to AQ we gon make him payz 4 it

But yes you have to 3-bet pre. It will make the hand so much easier to play, instead of taking a flop 4-5 ways OOP.

What about 4betting to 180 making it almost 120 more to continue?

I'm not sure he wouldn't just flat with AA/KK trying to get more money in the pot either....

I put him on JJ, would you still want to push against someone that has shown a propensity to be rather loose with their calls?

It actually plays out worse if I 3bet pre to say 40. It would go fold fold, all-in for 64, sb calls, and then I'd have no option to 4bet pre.

But, yeah usual play is to 3bet pre and get isolated with the SB, and I'd have position on him.

Yes. A lot.


Erm....

Better hope so.

The read on villain is pretty worthless. Everybody gets strong hands from time to time. I'll buy that he's loose, that would explain completing the small blind. But betting it? How often does he do that? Until proven otherwise, this shows strength. I dunno that he drops. Maybe I guess.

Is he loose, and aggressive? Or loose passive?
Is he loose, and cally? Or is he loose, and weak/foldy?

Not to be critical, IRTM. It's one of those things where by not 3betting here, hero got hisself into a pickle.

I guess there are times and places where you can flat AK, but holy crap, not here!!!

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OP, I saw your post after composing this note.
a) Don't get hung up on this particular hand when you're thinking about the best play in general. Even brilliant plays don't always work out.
b) What the heck's wrong with that outcome? Ya got the button, ya got equity, ya got two fish on the line, and you still have chips. ????

Even if I 3bet I'd still be in a pickle. middle position would have shoved for 64, and sb would have called, and I'd be right back where I was at.

It's only noted because if MP doesn't shove, then the hand plays completely different 5 way.

i would reshove here also

I hear you. There are any number of ways this hand could take the big swirl.

But in general, I don't think I'm going way out on a limb by saying that if you're on AK in the big blind, and there are a bunch of limpers, and SB makes a surprisingly strong move, a nice firm 3bet is called for.

What kind of range do you put V2 on? If there's a lot of AQ, AJ, KQ sorta hands, that's cool. Me, I think V2's range is heavily skewed toward pp. If that's true, you really don't want to play for stacks against this guy, not pre-flop. Dealt to the river, I think you're a dog. You kind of need to see the flop before you feel good about playing for stacks.

Unfortunately, you have yourself in a position where you have two options:
1. Shove all in, and play for stacks against somebody who is probably ahead. Maybe with the dead money in the pot you're close. But it's not totally clear you're positive EV. (I get it; hand equity+fold equity+dead money = maybe a little something for mommy. Maybe.)
2. Play in a bloated pot with a bunch of drooling zombies with a hand that is kind of unlikely to turn out much better that TPTK.

Why?

Me, I would not mind being last to act on the flop against one villain who is out of bullets, and one who is probably going to play his hand face-up. No guarantee you will win, but you should be able to play optimally.


Edited to add: Keeping in mind that the intent of 3betting is to isolate SB, or force him to declare his hand. Meaning, if he shoves, I could find a fold. If he calls, I'm happy to see the flop and see if villain bets, and if so, how happy he seems to be about it.

Results oriented thinking here.

What if you 3bet, and MP decides that your have a really stong hand and simply folds? Also possible.
And if you think that MP is going to shove here the majority of the time then you can 3bet to anything under $38 ($35 is a pretty reasonable 3bet here anyway) and then if MP shoves action is still open to you and you get to decide how you want to proceed. And if he doesn't, you're playing a pot IP with an SPR of ~3.5 where stacking off with top pair is pretty standard.

Yeah, I recognize that it's results oriented. I'm just running thru the options. It could also go 3bet and fold out everyone winning $18. limp around, sb raise, bb cold 3 bets is a huge signal of strength at this level and scares off a lot of people. 3bet makes my hand transparent imo. But, obv 3bet the best option to make sure there's money in the pot if it goes to the flop.

And, then the 4bet situation. Not a huge fan of stacking off with AK pre, but I see a lot of people saying that's the best play here. Just re-shove? or 4bet to a lesser amount and then jam the flop?

His initial raise I thought maybe KJ or something like that.

And, then when he flatted the 64 all-in I thought maybe JJ.

I also thought that if I 4bet to 150-180 I'm definitely getting called, but if I shove the entire amount he probably folds.

You have to 3b. End of discussion. Forget what happened, you *most likely* end up HU with SB, take down $18. Both are way better than this spot.

I would probably fold. MP can have anything from 66+ that thinks he is up against AK down to ATs, AQo. Not great but ok. Part of my folding is I am not sure how competent SB is. Does he have AA and not afraid to bring in more players. Or does he get everyone out of the pot with AA/KK because he is going to take it down now?

Btw there is now way in the main pot $180 we are +ev versus these two players. We have 25% equity max if SB is playing TT this way. The remaining stack versus SB are are 50/50 - at best if he does have a weird TT. Probably on a range more like 40/60 dog.

Well I can tell you for certain that if I did 3bet, MP would still have shoved, and we end up in the exact same spot of whether or not to 5bet the SB pre with AK.

I am confused... when it came to you preflop MP told you if you call or raise he is going to shove either way? Otherwise you are being results oriented.

And say you 3b to 50, MP shoves. Ok. What does SB do? Do we know in advance that SB ALWAYS calls, ALWAYS 5 bets? You are not in the same spot. At all. How SB reacts to a short stack limp/shoving over his raise with limp/callers in between and how SB reacts to a being 3b, then 4b shoved on with 3better behind is completely different scenario.

I suspect you are saying that b/c you know what MP/SB had and how they would have most likely played their hand. But see, you didnt know that at that time. That is results oriented.

no he is saying if he 3-bets pre he expects MP to shove anyway so he closes the door on OP shoving because of the sizing. unless OP is paying attention to this and sizes it to $35ish so he can reshove.

this would also help define SB's hand. in SB's mind, OP can have a lot of hands when he flats SB's raise. if SB 5-bet shoves, we can decide what we want to do. if SB folds, we call easily. if SB flats, we have to make a decision of how often can we get SB to fold a better hand. i think the answer is a pretty low percentage of the time. but what % does it have to be for it to be +EV?

the way the hand played out i'm probably never shoving. i really don't think we rep a better hand than JJ if we do this. he may still fold JJ, but i think it's an even lower % of the time than if we had 3-bet pre.

Hero are you BB?

3b in the first place, snap shoving now.

I agree he is saying that but it b/c he knows now what MP had.

Regardless, we are not in the same place now whether or not we 3b or flat as OP suggests.

I dont like a 4bet if villain is competent. You basically never have KK+ after flatting the raise pre, so expect to get looked up by QQ, JJ, AK, even TT alot. After shortie shoves, I think I just flat but folding may be better. It's close. This is assuming SB's raising range is TT+, AQ+ or tighter. If he has a lot of worse hands, you should 3bet the first time around. Unless I have a good read on SB where he can fold overpairs alot, I'm not a big fan of 3betting AK against tight ranges.

Seeing as there are 5 limps, I take it back and I think 3betting is optimal. 3betting to $26 or so to regain the initiative and isolate is good. We can rep KK+ and if villain can't fold, we can always just cbet flop and give up. Playing AK OOP against 7 players is not good

You dont know that for sure. If you 3bet the first time around, you will get a lot more credit for a monster hand. With shortie shoving, SB would have to fold a decent % of the time or flat, then you can shove and credibly rep KK+.

I also like a small 3bet because if shortie shoves, it reopens the action for you to 5bet shove if SB flats the shortie's shove

dupe

We should never just call here, it has to be shove or fold at this point. We will be so lost when an A or K don't hit and are going to be forced into making awful mistakes by folding.

Obviously it's a three bet. Also, OP: stop trying to put someone on an exact hand based on really limited information. You said initially "I put him on maybe KJ" then you put him on JJ after he called the shove. Use ranges of hands.