Hero ($170): been playing for a few hours, pretty up and down session, got up to around $375 then a few stupid river cards sent me back down. My image is TAG and playing well but running not so well

V ($250): decent LAG who I've played with before. His stack has been anywhere between $600 and $100, he's taken down a lot of pots without showdown and has also been caught 3 barelling trying to rep a rivered flush vs an OMC with a set. He usually tries to abuse me when in position but he has pretty much stayed out of my way tonight. He is on my direct left.

folds to random tight-ish guy in the CO who makes it $10. I had only seen him raise once in maybe 45 minutes so I flat from the SB with 10s. V calls from BB.

Flop 9-6-3 rainbow

checks to CO who bets $15

I call since I think my hand is likely best but I want to evaluate on the turn since I don't know much about CO.

Here's where it gets interesting.

V thinks for about 10 seconds and makes it $40 to go. CO quickly folds.

I'm about 85% sure I have the best hand, but I'm torn between calling and letting him continue bluffing and just shoving now since there's a lot of turns I don't like that he will definitely shove with or without a real hand. I think the chance of him bluffing is > the chance that he calls with worse but he knows that I know he's capable of squeezing and could level himself into calling with a 9 or possibly even 77-88. He already hero called the river with bottom pair against someone else tonight so I know he's got it in him.

What say you 2+2, call or shove now?

just bc he barrels three streets and calls light doesn't mean he is c/r bluffing here, and this exactly how decent lags get paid off on their good hands. if he happens to be overplaying tp here then there will be plenty of opportunities to stack him, and i'd let this go.

don't level yourself into thinking that he is thinking on some higher level where he is considering what you think he thinks he has, justifying a shove for value where it is highly unlikely he is calling with worse.

perfect spot and villain to call all the way

raising accomplishes nothing (all worse folds, all better calls)

3b pre to 30, fold a 4b. As played, donk 20 to get value from 78, A9, 89-K9 type hands with the plan to fold if tightish CO bombs it. As played call the raise and check any turn. Then decide.

This!!!

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The problem with this is that the pot is ~$125 if you call OOP on the flop and you have $125 in your stack. If you are going to go with this line, then you will have to check on the turn to induce the V to bet. You are c/cing him on the turn and river anyways, so I'm not sure how you are getting away from getting beat by a better hand. The only reason that you are calling this flop is to induce value on the turn and river, not to escape from a better hand. Now, if you had $500 behind, then this is a completely different discussion.

Not to get away from a better hand, but to allow his bluffs to keep firing. I think we could've made our decisions easier had we shown some aggression at some point in the hand.

You are OOP. If I'm the V and I just got called down by the SB, then I don't see how I can make a play for the pot with air when the pot is $125 and the SB only has $125 left. Most players in that spot are going check behind after you check. Calling on the flop is just giving away two free cards.

This is a good point and another reason why we should've taken some aggressive action in the hand. We're playing the guessing game now and villain can play perfectly against us.

I like shove better than fold better than call. Calling to induce more bluffs seems silly with the stack sizes and the fact a lot of his bluffs have good outs. Once you call you can't fold so seeing another 9 or any over would suck. The idea of calling to induce bluffs works better when you have a stronger hand IMO. He's repping a set or a straight combo and could have you crushed already. So that's where the table dynamics and reads come in and you decide if you want to roll with this hand. If so, shove.

This is the typical leak of 2+2ers... Stop putting yourself in V's shoes. V isn't you, V is a spew monkey LAG that likes to make moves...

We want V to keep barreling however being out of position hurts us because flatting and checking turn allows V to play perfectly against us. Similarly, c/r shoving flop folds out V's air so what do we do?

Min-raise V.

This is a tool most players don't have in their tool kit. Min-raising aggros is like waving raw meat in front of a starving wolf. It is a slap to the face of their ego, it's like poking a tiger w a stick.

The aggro will spazz out 95% of the time and shove w his total range.

Another line you can take is to flat and to lead out on turn $20 to INDUCE him into shoving.

98% of the time, the above is FPS, but against an aggro who has a significant amount of air in his range and we are OOP, those llines are gold.

Lastly, the thought of folding in this spot should never cross our mind

My first thought was to snap shove and show this LAG that he needs to attack someone else to setup for future hands.

But then I realized that he's going to double you up. And I like money. So just flat and let him lead the turn. Hopefully he leads with $50 or so, and you can just shove.

I think this villain's range is [22-JJ, 87, 98, T9, Ax, broadways]. The only bad card for you is another T, because you're going to go broke if he has 87 (obviously, you cannot ever fold if a T hits).

BTW... this is a 3B/f preflop. Playing TT from SB is just a recipe for -EV. Set-mine not optimal line here. I 3B to $45-50.

This really depends on how lagy the guy is.
Your overcall shows strength....l mean a tight guy who almost never raises raises, then he bets into a 3 way pot (not huge strength but some strength) and then you call, on a dry board with a player left to act...your hand has to be strongish and could be very strong...and he still raises.

With some lagtards...this is an easy call down...against a half way competent lag this is a fold.

I always try to get reads on lags..if they attack strength or not. Many lags always attack weakness (it kind of defines a lag), but almost never attack strength other just attack and attack.

Ok, if you both have a hand (V has A9+), the money is in the middle no matter how you play it. Strategy is not really a consideration.

The only time this hand is interesting is when either you have him slightly beat (K9-, 88, 77, etc) or when he has complete air. It appears from your quote above that you are advocating popping it to $80 and you feel like that will induce the V to shove (even with air) for another $85 because he is monkey enough to think that he has some kind of fold equity against me? If he is that bad of a player with such mindless aggression, then why not call and check the turn and he will immediately shove against your apparent weakness. I have only played with the mindless LAGs that you are describing a few times in the last 15 years, but I've only played with them for a few hours (at best) before they bust out. This “rabid” player is so rare it is not even worth consideration. Most LAG players push for FE when the chip stacks are higher or run and hide when a tight player plays back at them……. Even the stupid ones and even when they don’t even realize that they are doing it.

I think it is very important to not overestimate your opponents at 1/2, but the V would have to be a complete knuckle-dragger for this to work enough to be profitable.

Its not about V being a knuckle dragger or stupid. It's about V being aggro and having conditioned himself to take aggressive lines no matter what.

Aggro V's usually have pretty big egos and an intense aggressive auto-pilot reflex. They simply aren't used to being played back at with min-raises. What they are used to is bullying the table and then some weak passive fish eventually flops the world and c/r shoves on the aggro and then the aggro folds...

The problem with just c/c in this spot is that scare cards can easily hit on the turn or river. this is problematic in many ways.
#1, it may stop V from bluffing.
#2, it will increase the percentage of times Hero folds the best hand due to tiny testicles and the board getting scary when V shoves
#3, it allows V to play perfectly against us

One of the fundamental principles of poker is that when you have an equity advantage you want to pump as much money into the pot as possible. And in this case, a min-raise does that.

Lastly, I will say that I take these sorts of lines vs aggros all the time and it works wonders. You min-raise an aggro, and they spazz out 95% of the time despite whatever effective stacks they have behind. It's like a short circuit to their aggro brains.

All I can say is that if you aren't min-raising aggros in this spot and you are doing the typical passive trappy trappy checky checky then you are losing a lot of value all the times they either just check back future streets, bluff you out because a scare card hits, or they hit their miracle hand on turn/river and extract max value from you...

To be clear, being trappy checky trappy in this spot is +EV, but it is NOT optimal. It loses you value over the long term.

EDIT: I can DEFINITELY get behind a flat if we were in position. But being OOP is a huge disadvantage. When we flat the initial bet AND the raise, the cat's out of the bag as far as us having a hand. And thus, V can play perfectly against us on turn by checking back all his draws and seeing one more additional free card. However, if we were in position, he'd have to continue his aggression on turn.

I kinda like the min-raise but what do we do if he flats it? Check the turn and hope that he spazzes then? Its still better than a Call IMO because at least we get $20 more out of his bluffs with outs.

if you continue, flat and have him barrel off

I really like the min raise idea (actually used it successfully in a session the other night). If he did flat, which I doubt he would do, I would probably lead small on the turn and look to get the rest in.

imho: min-raising does work really well against aggro players + it puts more "pressure on their ego and mindset" as well as opens up another round of betting as well as finding out additional information about his hand (a lot of + here . When we think we are good give him another chance to make a mistake straight away. Don't let him catch up with our plan or our hand. If i had a bigger stack on flop.

as played: shoving the flop to take down the pot OOP (hopefully no sets on V. if so nh). not interested in deception here OOP against a potentially drawing hand and already a nice pot sitting there. He calls with worse (draw OK), he folds also not bad. We are not really that strong here to flat.

GRUNCH

This is a weird spot, your hand is extremely under-repped however what is he doing this with, aside from complete air? His hand looks a lot like a set, it's realistic he flatted with either 3's, 6's, or 9's. What's his calling range PF oop? does he call with 36, 69, 45, 78? I don't see why he is doing this with a 89, 910 or A9 type hand, but i suppose that's possible.

Since you have a lot of histore what does a check raise typically indicate from him? I've seen plenty of LAGs 3 barrell bluff but some will rarely check raise with out a monster. other check raise every value hand in the book.

I think the answers to these questions will probably help you find your answer. I probably fold, that's a weird spot though.

Grunch, this depends on if you view this guy as a winning lag or not. I play lag often and there is good chance he has two pair here. He calls tightwads bet because he has a narrow range and V knows exactly what he needs to hit, and get tightwad to stack off. Turns out tightwad didn't have a over pair this time for V... Oh but kooky here you do haha. Sorry if he is a winning lag I think I just call call here.

Oh sheesh I thought we had seen a turn already... Call, check turn, reavaluate. That's the way I would play it.