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1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR 1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR

06-11-2010 , 11:32 AM
my image is of a competent, tight player. CO is a competent, tight player that i have seen just flat pre with AK. we know each other quite well.
it's the end of the night (6am), table was being hyper aggressive and loose.

1/2 NL - 10 handed

CO (1300)
Hero MP (1300)

Hero is dealt 9T.

some limps to a 5 straddle, Hero raises to 30, HJ, CO, SB & BB call.

i've been card dead for a while and decided to raise with a speculative hand hoping i will get credit since i haven't been too active, got more calls then i expected. HJ&SB are loose while BB is tight. 25+ is a pretty standard raise.

Flop (155) KJ7

SB&BB checks, Hero bets 55, HJ folds, CO calls, SB&BB folds

pretty bad flop but does hit my range (people know what ranges are here), i'm mostly OOP and it's multiway but i decide on taking a stab with a cbet and then giving up if i get callers. the cbet is low but this is not rare, people might think i hit a monster and anyway there are almost no draws. i would think only a K will call.

Turn (265) KJ78

Hero bets 90, CO raises to 200, Hero raises to 350, CO calls 350

boom. when CO raises i put him mostly on AK/KQ/KJs/77/JJ/trying to make a move on me/ - in that order. he does suffer sometimes from MUBS and i think he only calls a shove with JJ. with a real hand, he is almost never folding to a relative min raise, pot is getting gigantic and he might shove if he feels like he has the best hand. when he just calls i that he probably is afraid but he also might not want to fold me out.

River (965) KJ78K

Hero ??

please blank OTR please blank OTR.. i want to shoot myself in the head. if he has AK/KQ i got to shove since i'm loosing value by him checking behind this gigantic pot, he might be thinking i'm trying to trap/doesn't want to risk another 350. if he has a boat, i should just check fold.

Last edited by djo; 06-11-2010 at 11:40 AM.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 11:42 AM
bet/3-bet more on turn. That way its a no brainer river shove.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1
bet/3-bet more on turn. That way its a no brainer river shove.
as played?
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 11:51 AM
I have quite a bit of experience playing $1-$2 this deep.

IMO raising preflop is fine sometimes just to mix things up some. A LOT of people are going to say just fold preflop and that is fine to.

Flop cb is fine, you could check for pot control.

Turn I lead out and bet more, as played when the villian raises to $200, I think you have to put in a large raise. I would raise to $600-$650 at that point. I think he lays down everything but a set then. If he does happen to have the same hand, then you can get it all in and not worry about the board pairing on the end and having a hard decision to make.

As played on the river I think you have to check. If he moves in you have to fold. It is a huge pot for $1-$2 but there is very little chance you have him beat. It is possible for the same hand, but I think he checks back most of the time with the straight when the river pairs the board.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 11:54 AM
I really don't understand preflop at all
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1
bet/3-bet more on turn. That way its a no brainer river shove.
This AINEC. I lead like 150 and if he raises you can easily just 3b jam.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 12:16 PM
I don't like the flop CB here, theres 4 other people in the hand and you are in dead middle position. K defintiely hits somebody's range here, you can pick a better spotm c/f flop.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 02:27 PM
I'm having real trouble putting villian on a hand and am therefore lost as to what to do here. Stack sizes suck as you're too shallow to b/f and too deep to just say f it and stick it in. Of course the reason we're in this spot is the turn play, which makes me want to stab a bunny.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 04:21 PM
Why c-bet the flop for 1/3 of the pot? Depending on how you've been playing postflop throughout the night, some players would probably take you off the hand on the flop w/ a bet like that. I'm guessing you'd fold if someone raised you to $160, which makes this bet even more useless. I suggest betting anywhere from a stick to $125 on the flop.

Just b/c most of the night your opponents have been making weakish flop bets doesn't mean you should make the same mistake as well. A strong bet on the flop makes your opponents define their hands a bit more AND allows you to get a ton of value if called and you hit your magic card on the turn.

Now that you've hit the turn and have gotten raised (I'm guessing that's what your 1/3 pot bet on the turn was meant for), Villain looks to have no problem playing a big pot. That said, why not 3bet to $575ish? Just think, if you had bet a stick on the flop, $225 on the turn and had gotten raised, all the money could have gone in by now.

As played, your read on the flop is that CO puts you on a strong hand on the flop and still has no problem raising you on the turn. This IMO is VERY strong, which is exactly why you could have/should have tried to get it in on the turn.

I guess shove the river and put the decision on your opponent? Maybe you fold out small boats?
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 04:41 PM
I don't think small boats are folding here. The only reason to bet here is to get paid off by trip Kings.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 05:10 PM
This is exactly what my stepson does and why he goes broke. Its 6am and you can't book a win. You get involved with another good player, both with huge stacks, by making a donk preflop raise and a donk c-bet and then you make the nuts and you get cute and don't drop the hammer when you accidentally make the nuts.

How many times does he come in with this sort of hard luck story. But its not hard luck. You play a hand against a player and a stack you don't need to mess with, playing loose and fast, when you should have already been in the damn bed. It's a gambling problem sport.

Coming in here with a question about the river on this hand is like a drunken fool running headlong into a tree and then after splitting his skull speculating as to whether it was an oak or a maple.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djo
my image is of a competent, tight player. CO is a competent, tight player that i have seen just flat pre with AK. we know each other quite well.
it's the end of the night (6am), table was being hyper aggressive and loose.

1/2 NL - 10 handed

CO (1300)
Hero MP (1300)

Hero is dealt 9T.

some limps to a 5 straddle, Hero raises to 30, HJ, CO, SB & BB call.

i've been card dead for a while and decided to raise with a speculative hand hoping i will get credit since i haven't been too active, got more calls then i expected. HJ&SB are loose while BB is tight. 25+ is a pretty standard raise.

Flop (155) KJ7

SB&BB checks, Hero bets 55, HJ folds, CO calls, SB&BB folds

pretty bad flop but does hit my range (people know what ranges are here), i'm mostly OOP and it's multiway but i decide on taking a stab with a cbet and then giving up if i get callers. the cbet is low but this is not rare, people might think i hit a monster and anyway there are almost no draws. i would think only a K will call.

Turn (265) KJ78

Hero bets 90, CO raises to 200, Hero raises to 350, CO calls 350

boom. when CO raises i put him mostly on AK/KQ/KJs/77/JJ/trying to make a move on me/ - in that order. he does suffer sometimes from MUBS and i think he only calls a shove with JJ. with a real hand, he is almost never folding to a relative min raise, pot is getting gigantic and he might shove if he feels like he has the best hand. when he just calls i that he probably is afraid but he also might not want to fold me out.

River (965) KJ78K

Hero ??

please blank OTR please blank OTR.. i want to shoot myself in the head. if he has AK/KQ i got to shove since i'm loosing value by him checking behind this gigantic pot, he might be thinking i'm trying to trap/doesn't want to risk another 350. if he has a boat, i should just check fold.
Fold pre flop. That's it. No question asked -

Now,
Quote:
.. i've been card dead for a while and decided to raise with a speculative hand hoping i will get credit since i haven't been too active, got more calls then i expected.
What speculative hand you have?
You define 9T to be speculative? -
Well, in a raised pot; If you hit the 9 it's no good. If you hit the Ten is also no good. If you hit both your cards on the flop you'll be against draws and it will be expensive to play. If the board pairs on the turn or river your hand is dead to any over pair. In a raised pot your hand to be speculative it has got to be connected, suited and have multiway/volume pots with big stacks behind. Else, FOLD



1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 06:06 PM
the mistake is on the turn. raise it to AT LEAST 500, please. as played just check/fold the river. I can put villain on air a high % of times here, but imo there's nothing you can do if he can bet air on that river.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-11-2010 , 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheusmaier
the mistake is on the turn. raise it to AT LEAST 500, please. as played just check/fold the river. I can put villain on air a high % of times here, but imo there's nothing you can do if he can bet air on that river.
I think a bigger mistake was made on the flop. Either bet $120 or just check and fold. Once you screw up the flop, you compound your mistake by making a horrible re-raise on the turn. He made his bed, now it's time to sleep in it. No matter how many times Villain tried to bail him out, he just kept screwing himself.
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06-11-2010 , 08:06 PM
First change seats if you can so you are IP on CO...

Preflop/flop... meh I don't mind what you started out to do, as long as its not strictly out of boredom from being card dead. But you are telling a story here, and stutter on the first paragraph of it with that small c-bet. Make a bigger bet on the flop, make it believable that you raised with AK/KQ, TT+.

Turn... wat?!?! Make a real bet here. As played get most of your money with a big raise. Maybe as played CO puts you on a big hand trying to play trapy and what not. I can tell you, that you look like scared money up to this point in the hand, and I am going to abuse you with a raise just like CO did just about every time. When you put in that funky min raise I am call with all my two pair hands and sets looking to improve on the river to stack you.

River... as played check/call a small bet.
1/2 - 650BB deep. nut straight OTT, 1000BB pot, board pairs OTR Quote
06-12-2010 , 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom1975
I don't think small boats are folding here. The only reason to bet here is to get paid off by trip Kings.
haha. small boats are not folding.

as stated by other posters, his turn play is so strong that i am probably going to raise to $600 minimum. I do not have very much experience playing this deep but I want to get it in on the turn as much as possible. if villian is a good player, when you raise to $600 or more he will know that you are willing to play for stacks and he will shove. i don't think he is folding sets here so you can just say you got sucked out on when the river pairs but you were all in on the turn.
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06-12-2010 , 12:29 PM
fold pre
cbet like a man or just c/f
turn is just horribad
as played kick yourself in the nuts for playing bad
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06-12-2010 , 02:14 PM
Preflop: Yeah, when the stacks are this deep you can do some creative raising on the early streets, but I still think jacking it up here is a mistake for the following reasons:
1) The pot is straddled to $5. Your stack is so deep that it doesn't effect you and similarly deep stacks very much, but it makes anyone with a $200 or smaller stack very short and puts you at a huge disadvantage against them when you have a hand like T9.

2) The table is playing "hyper aggressive and loose." Even with a tight image your hyper opponents might not care and play back at you. This is a problem not only for you because of hand strength, but also because...

3)... your position sucks. You have at least one loose player behind you, and with a 6X straddle raise with at least two limpers in front of you there's a good chance you take the flop with callers to both your left and right. Your raise would be a whole lot more defensible if you were either on the button or had tight players to your immediate left who were likely to fold to your raise, but might overlimp or raise themselves in late position.

Flop: This is a good flop for you not only because you hit a double gutshot draw on a rainbow board, but also because with no preflop reraise it's unlikely you're up against KK and to a lesser extent JJ. I would bet about $110 here. The pot is already big so it's okay to take it down now, if you bet too small you may get action from hands you definitely want to fold like AQ, QJ, JT, that you could fold out with a healthier bet.

Turn: As played, bet $250 and put in a big 3bet if you get raised. If CO truly is a competent player (with a leak that he's too eager to flat call preflop with AK) his range is pretty small and you'll get heavy action from most of it. 77 is a very real possibility that will likely raise, AK and KJ are also conceivable hands that will give you action with KJ probably raising. T9 is also possible, and it's better to get the same hand all-in now then get cheaply to the river in a spot where he can conceivably blow you off the same hand if the board pairs. The pot is big, the stacks are huge, and you have the nuts. Play in a manner that increases the likelyhood of the money going all in. Your tiny bet and raise here were gigantic errors.

River: As played, don't shoot yourself in the head. Your tiny bets from before give a small river blocking/value bet more credibility than usual. If you think your opponent won't come over the top of you with AK or KQ $200 and folding to an all-in raise isn't a bad idea. Check/calling is defensible as well.

Understand that your bet-sizing and decision to raise preflop OOP are the root of your problems on the river.

Just my opinion...
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06-13-2010 , 09:44 AM
If you think you're check calling, you may aswell just ship it in on the river.

Your turn re-raise was horribly sized which is why you got stuck in this sick spot.
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06-13-2010 , 02:06 PM
Agree with others about poor turn re-raise, then again i'm sure you were trying to get paid. Horrible river, how did it end up playing?
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06-13-2010 , 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime n Soda
Agree with others about poor turn re-raise, then again i'm sure you were trying to get paid. Horrible river, how did it end up playing?
check check and i took the pot. later on he told me he had AJ and didn't believe i had a hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percula
First change seats if you can so you are IP on CO...
don't i prefer to have position on the loose fish?
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06-13-2010 , 04:27 PM
PF is bad, flop is weak, turn is uber-weak and all that sets up a very tough decision on the river in which u probably have to call as this is AK or KQ enough (I think a set gets it in OTT but KJ is a definite possibility.)
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06-13-2010 , 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djo
don't i prefer to have position on the loose fish?
No not when you are this deep. One of the key points to playing deep live games is being able to protect and use your stack. If everyone to your right is short stacked in relation to your stack and just one person is equal to or covers you to your left, its going to make your life tough, just as it did in this hand.

Also if a fish is to your right, it really doesn't matter if they are directly on your right or 3-4 seats to your right, you are still going to be playing the majority of your hands against them IP.
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