$1/2 game with a $5 bring-in, 100 min buy-in, 500 max.

Hero has been playing pretty taggy ~20% of pots, nearly always the PF raiser or limp folding pre with suited aces and the like. Cbet about 60%, turn cbet about 70%. I haven't been caught bluffing or out of line on any hands, shown down a few big hands.

Table has been playing pretty tight for the most part, villain in hand 1 just sat down, middle aged asian guy that the regs all know. Has played 2 orbits and about 50% of hands so far, half raising PF and half limping. No SD's yet.

Hand 1:
Hero is UTG+1 with $1800 and QQ
Villain is MP2 with $500

Preflop: Hero raises to $20, MP2 calls.

Flop ($40): 346
Hero bets $25, Villain Calls $25.

Turn ($90): 6
Hero checks, Villain bets $35, Hero raises to $100, Villain Calls

River ($290): 9
Hero bets $125, Villain Calls

On the turn my intention was to CR fold. I think firing a second barrel here will put me in a tough spot if villain decides I'm on a bluff and wants to take it away with a medium pair. I think the CR is much more effective to find out where I am at. When villain snap calls, I don't put him on a 6 but more likely an 77-TT or something like 45, 55. River is a bet fold by hero. The reason I dont put him on a 6 is due to the snap call, if he was nutted or super strong, I think he would have to take a second to think about a raise...

bet flop bigger because if he has a pair he will call if you bet $40.

The 6 on the turn is a good card for you. No draws hit and a 6 is not a huge part of his range. Your check raise is bad and pointless IMO because if he has a six he does not fold and if he has weaker hands like A4 or something donkish he is going to check back getting a free card or fold to the CR. You should just bet out around pot, then pot safe rivers and fold to a raise.

/thread

So I got a little FPS'y and should have just B/F 3 streets?

Makes sense.

I don't hate your turn check-raise at all. In fact, I like it. Bet more on the river $155-175 as played. I agree, he doesn't insta-call turn with a 6, straight or FB because he has to think about raising. I'd expect him to have 77-1010, 55, 45, A4. nh

This is overkill but:

The check raise is bad, I cannot emphasise it enough. a random live donk will not bet this turn a large enough % of the time to make it good. The only hands he will do this with are 6x & 77+, however, he will check back all straight draws and crappy one pair hands that have implied odds on you. This means when he sucks out on you will always give away a bet to him but if he misses you will not win a bet in return because he will just fold.

When I play live with other young guys/semi-knowledgeable players, the biggest leak I see is they give fish way too much credit and so have insane FPS. Everyone is terrible until proved otherwise. when you have a hand ram it down their throats, when they show strength nit up like crazy.

Seen just as many overly-tight nits at 1/2 as I have donks who over-play their marginal hands. If we think 6x and 77+ are the only hands that bet the turn, then why is there a problem with c/raising QQ. We're essentially paying the same amount as if we had just c/called turn and river, but when we can be fairly certain we're good on the river, we make a lot more moulah.

As for not betting his straight draws and checking them back 100% of the time, I simply disagree. You're oversimplifying things. Not every single 1/2 player in the world is a passive check-call fish. Donks don't all donk in the same manner. the 6 is the perfect card for him to bet if he has a draw/pair.

In fact, if you were in villain's shoes, would you never bet anything less than a 6 or 77+ there?

Turn check-raise is weird. I don't see why we don't just lead out? I don't understand the thought process behind checkraising here at all. The turn bet from villain is very polarized unless he is lolbad - check raise to me is wtf?

As played, on the river, I'm undecided between check-calling and check-folding. It's just a weird spot given the check-raise on the turn. And I'm definitely not betting the river. I am a huge fan of getting max-value but here I think we're asking for too much. Villain calls check-raise on turn, and a susbstantial bet on river with a busted combo draw? I don't think so.

As stated in OP, if villain is capable (seems like he could be but I have no evidence yet), I think villain will put us on an overpair or missed broadways here if we barrel the turn, giving us a difficult decision if he decides to raise the turn to rep a six. He may also think he is best with a hand like 55, 77+ and decide to put in a raise.

I think the check raise instead, gives him a tough decision with medium pairs and makes our decision much easier (if he shoves we fold). River sizing @ 40% of pot was a blocking bet by me to discourage villain from shoving a busted combo draw if I check, however is small enough that I am not lot committed if he shoves over the top.

If I was in villains shoes I am firing a barrel on that turn card with 100% of my flop calling range, after all, hero has only raised pre and made a standard cbet and could very well be checking/giving up on turn.

I agree with this--in low level live cash games, players are not betting for you enough of the time, but will call your bets with worse plenty. You are missing out on lots of value by checking this, and getting it checked through. Not to mention that there are draws in a lot of his range that you are letting him see the river for free. You will usually get 3 streets of value vs mid/high pairs, which is the goal in these kind of games.

In low level live cash games--way less check raising, way more value betting--when in doubt, just bet. You can even bet/fold comfortably to most players in games like this.

Really? I guess that's where there is a difference in opinion. I am firing a very small portion of my calling range on the 6 on the turn, and yes I obviously expect hero to have air a lot of the time here. Thus I hate the checkraise where you believe you are check raising for value.

I just think there are more combo draws in his range than hands like 88/99. And that's why I don't like the original check and thought the check raise was strange because it will get checked through a lot of the time. You put the same amount of pressure on his middle pair if you just lead out, and there's no danger of it being checked through.

And what exactly are you representing with the check-raise here? Your range is pretty capped as UTG+1, and I don't think you ever can call a shove here. This is however 1/2 so this probably doesn't matter.

If I was OP I would never, and I mean never, CR this turn with QQ unless I had a very specific reason. If you have only ever played two orbits with villain and you did not mention a previous hand which gives credence to making this move, making a check raise is FPS.
If I was the villain, I would check back a decent % of my value range to snap offs some bluffs against semi-decent players but this is an aside.

When OP tries to check raise several bad things happen.

1. lets say villain has any pair on the board, 77-TT, or a straight draw and checks it back. If he hits his hand you will have to pay him off if you play queens this way. You are giving him control of the hand.

2. You polarising your range when you actually do CR. If the villain knows this he can shove over you CR 100% of the time and make a profit (you stated you would fold to a raise). If I was the villain this is what I would do.

3. You don't get more money if the pot if you CR. Lets say when you bet out pot he calls 40% of the time whilst he calls check raises 20% of the time.

$90 x 40%= $36 per hand where you bet pot
$110 x 20%= $22 per hand where you check raise


-Also take into account his stronger range when he calls the CR (his range will beat you more often).


Therefore you make less money when you are winning if you CR and lose more when you are beat. Don't check raise.

BTW check out the podcast Deuce Plays w/ Bart Hanson and listen to the episode called 'turn play', it will probably explain what I am trying to say much better (and its free).

Kept the river bet a little smaller so as not to scare him out and to save me money if he does indeed come over the top.

I wouldn't call this guy a fish. While this is a "$1/2" game. It's really just an odd structure $2/5 game. It is the only table in the room running that is not $1/2 NLHE or $3/6 LHE. It is the "big boys game" in this card room. The guy that sat down had appeared to be fairly aggressive (won all 4 of the pots that he raised PF, without showdown). In addition all of the regs in the $1/2/5 game knew him by name so he is no stranger to the "bigger" game this casino hosts.

This was kind of my thinking at the time as well, additionally, I was worried that if I lead out and he decides to turn his 77-TT into a bluff by raising me on the turn, it puts me in a difficult spot. I can't flat a reasonable size turn raise with the plan to check call the river. I think the CR works to keep the pressure on him for this reason. Obviously, if he checks it back and an ugly card peels on the river, and I check and he fires, I'd have to decide if he hit or not.

I think this is a very good point.

Yes that would be part of the reason we differ. Until I know villain is capable of check trapping me, I'm firing most of my range on this turn with hands including 77-TT (to protect from giving AK a free card) as well as hands like A5 where villain may be on a bigger ace and I'm no good at showdown.

Part of the reason I posted this hand. I think you may be correct in that leading out will charge these draws.

Nuts or Air. Not repping anything but nuts or air. I was thinking that the beauty of this line is rather deep. First, it shows I can take bluff looking lines with value hands, confusing the **** out of the regulars on the table that usually see me play straight forward ABC. Secondly, I think taking this "nut or air" line will frequently get paid off by a weaker hand (A4 for example) when villain is a disbeliever.

An excellent reply. Thank you very much. This was exactly the reason I posted this hand was to try to find the general consensus in taking a nut or air line with a value hand on boards like this. I will definitely check out the podcast.

What are your thoughts on check raising in order to prevent villain from making a play at the pot. I think that a rudimentary thinking villain will see that 6 as a scare card vs most opponents and may turn their draw or whiffed hand that floated the flop in a bluff on this turn. Rather than check raise, if I instead fire this turn ~$80 and villain raises to $200, I think we have a clear fold. I think the check raise prevents him from being able to take us off our hand unless he is willing to commit his entire stack. With this line of thinking would it be better to check call the turn, and check call the river. Or am I just playing scared poker by wanting to cater my play against a villain that I feel is capable of playing back at me (although after this hand appears to be more of a station).

Any more thoughts are appreciated. Thanks to all.