History hands of V:

1) playing weirdly snug, opened AQdd to 12 over 2 limps and cbet 10 into 50 on Q97dd (wtf)

2) another time he raised to 30 from SB with A5o in a 1/2/4 straddled pot over 2 limps, got a call from CO, then check/called a small bet on AKQr vs A9o and checked down to river, sighing away that he should have folded flop since he knew he was outkicked

3) saw him just overcall with 85dd on a Q74dd flop earlier then bluff like $75 OTR when he whiffed

Playing pretty snug but weird overall... the type of guy sitting on $1000 but getting very upset if he makes a bad bluff or overplays any hand.. feels like he only waits to make big hands

OTTH:


$1000 effective ... 2 limps, HJ fish opens 15, CO nit calls, Hero calls OTB with AThh, 2 limpers call

Flop (75): QhJc5h
HJ bets 35, CO raises to 75, Hero calls, HJ calls

Turn (300): Qd
HJ checks, CO checks (filled up?), Hero checks

River (300): 4h
HJ checks, CO bets 110, Hero ?


I don’t think this guy is raising flop without 2p+ but even if he did, it makes no sense for him to check turn when he turned trips. I also block all his combo draws like Axhh or Txhh making KJhh or J9hh the only possible flushes, and I guess he’d just call flop with even those hands.

Can we make a hero fold here even for this price?

i see what you're saying, I probably still call. One thing I was thinking is could we possibly raise/fold this river ?

Given the way this hand as played and the V description I dont see how hero folding is even close to an option. Raise/Fold is a maybe, but I think I am happy just calling and hoping the HJ has AA or something he can overcall with.

Im not sure how youre calling someone who plays A5o and 85s a nit. He has tons of other flush combos here, plus some whiffed straight draws. I call here without thinking twice.

Villain is nowhere close to a nit. I dont have any idea how OP thinks that after listing the other hands he played. I cant trust OPs reads after reading that so I will go by the action alone.

First of all....fold or 3 bet preflop. Calling 7.5X raises with ATs is bad. Its better than ATo, but its still bad. Id rather have 87s any day.

Based on villains flop raise and turn check, I think hes just as likely to have a smaller FD or AA/KK as he is a boat so for me the river is an easy call.

I dunno, when you cold call the 75 on the flop, the whole table knows that you have a flush draw, so for V to donk so small on the river screams that he wants a call. But if he knows that you have a flush and he already has a boat, why didn't he check it to you OTR instead of betting out?

Either way, for 4:1 I am calling this just about everytime.

Yeah that sucks, but having the 3 hidden outs and the whale in HJ helps a bit.

Are you folding to the $75 OTF?




I don’t think that means anything. He’s just thinking “oh, I don’t want this checked around again” and feels obligated to bet.

Oh cmon.. although 3b can be okay, this is a standard call on this fishy table in position. 7.5 BBs is a standard open at this table, and stacks are $500+.

Call pre is super standard when it'll invite a 5-way multiway pot with us having absolute position and being able to cooler/stack many other weaker flushes/straights in a high SPR w/ a bunch of donks/fish limpers 500bb deep..

3-bet is just really meh and in no universe am i folding

Lol never folding for that price, the question is call or raise

Preflop charts are a joke. This is almost 2019. If you're still using them, your game is way too robotic.

How many pots have you won playing live where you stacked a guy for 500BBs?

This is 2019. How are you not using them? Given they are base of many really helpful poker tools.

Folding here would be absurd. Raise to $350 and consider folding to a jam.

Disagree with raising river and Mstar


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He doesn't seem like the type that would call your raise with a flush - that and he shouldn't really have a flush here anyway (KhJh, Kh9h possibly?) given the flop action. You having the Th is pretty important.

I would just call.

Why do we have to stack a guy for 500BB to show a +EV call?
















We don't.

If we can cooler lower straights/flushes vs 4 other players (who often will have one), we'll win at least a 200-600BB pot. That's more than enough. Expecting to win a 1000bb pot isn't very reasonable.

Why are you even thinking about folding AThh here OTB? 3-betting here 100% frequency isn't a great option either. 100BB i understand but this is one of the best spots you can ask for other than having JJ+

There are tables where I raise A5s UTG. Other tables I fold it or limp it.
There are players who raise and I fold AQs.
There are players who raise and I will 3 bet them with Q8s

Preflop charts take nothing into consideration other than playing like a robot. If you rely on them, you are playing a novice basic game.

We don't have to stack someone for calling preflop to be +EV, but you are the one who mentioned people being 500BBs deep as part of your justification for calling the raise. That insinuates you might stack someone for 500BBs. In about 5000 hours of live poker and somewhere near 1 million hands online, Ive never ever seen that happen.

Im sure its happened, but using that stack size as justification is a bit ridiculous. The odds of that ever becoming a factor is ridiculously remote.

If you're 500bb deep effective, you can also win 100-300bb off them, which is definitely reasonable.

So if it's profitable to call here at say 250bb deep effective, then it's definitely profitable to call at 500bb deep effective. 500bb is inclusive 100bb-499bb, so I don't see your point. I never said we should call because we are winning 500bb at a reasonable frequency. I did justify my reason for calling is being 500bb deep, and that's inclusive of 200bb+.

That's like saying if effective stacks were 5000bb deep, and I said that as one of the many reasons we should call, that I'm wrong because we never stack someone for 5000bb deep. That point is extremely moot. We can still win say 100-300bb at a reasonable frequency.

Just seems like a straw man's argument to me.

Also, there is a chance that we stack someone for 500bb. Even though it's extremely low, say 0.001, it still exists. It's not zero.

I've seen a hand go where 450bb went into the middle.

You don't need to get all defensive; I'm not attacking you. It's just a general consensus that folding here is bad, and if you don't want to agree with that, then that's fine.

I never said to fold. I said fold or 3 bet. I hate calling raises.

im so confused why we are talking about folding river

And if we don’t want to 3-bet, that implies that we need to fold. And I would not 3-bet, and most others would not either. So yes, in a way you did say fold.

And when you say fold or 3b, you are still directly saying fold anyway. When you say “fold or 3b” you are implying to fold at x% frequency and 3b at y% frequency, and to call at 0% frequency

I think calling pre-flop is fine - we have position and a good hand for a multi-way pot - however I like squeezing to $70ish better. We have a decent chance to isolate the fish since the player behind him is nitty, or we take down the pot right there which is always nice.

As played, folding the river would be crazy! You're getting way too good a price not to call.

I do see your point about the weird turn check though, and that your hand is pretty face up, which makes me not like the raise/fold suggestions. We're confident villain is strong, but he has more combos of full houses than lower flushes so we're not getting good value by raising I don't think; the fact that there's another player behind who might overcall makes calling even better.

Wait, wtf am I saying... All I read earlier was "CO nit called" but then I reread the hand histories and how is this guy nitty by raising with A5o and playing 85s?

How did you think CO's a nit? Because his cbet sizing with AQ was stupid? I wouldn't read that as nitty given the other 2 hands; I read that as just clueless about bet sizing.

I still might 3-bet but with a lesser chance to isolate the fish, calling looks more attractive. I don't think either is wrong; the pre-flop decision is probably close enough that it really doesn't matter either way.

Calling preflop is certainly a reasonable option here, folding much less so.