Pretty basic question; I feel like this is a leak in my game, and was hoping to find out some different opinions.

At what point do you decide to or not to turn a marginal / made hand into a bluff on the river? What questions do you ask yourself? What are you looking for in Villain? What are you looking for in board texture?

I would say the first thing is that your line has to make sense. A lot of people run into the problem of playing their hand a certain way then turning it into a bluff on the river and their line making zero sense.

As for the type of villain, that depends on the board texture and how you played the hand. If you are playing against a level 1 villain and the river brings 4 to a straight or 4 to a flush in a spot where you don't think they have it, that is a perfect place to bluff because they won't think about what you could have, they just think they got unlucky. Against thinking players it will have to depend on how you played the hand out, I don't think there is a general answer, it really depends on each individual hand.

In a vacuum, when a turn card hits your perceived range often and hurts the range you put him on. I do this from time to time with medium pocket pairs with one overcard to the flop, only to see another scary overcard on the turn.

Obvious first question at low stakes is "What can villain fold?" There are a lot of stationary types at low stakes that won't fold top pair for a reasonable bet, some are even worse and will call down with weaker hands. Obviously you never want to bluff these guys beyond a flop c-bet. It also helps if you can get some read on how strong villain is, a lot of villains will call with two pair+ even when it is likely crushed but can fold top pair.

After that you have to judge if the turn/river helped or hurt your and villain's perceived ranges, if villain has one. The purely level 0 thinkers don't put you on anything and a lot of low stakes villains don't have any rational thinking about your range. The only cards you can bluff against them are ones that bring in obvious draws. Generally I don't bluff at missed flush draws unless villain is particularly timid because all but the most cautious will pick off some bluffs on those boards. Better to have something else and bluff when the flush card does hit.

Essentially, it's when you have very weak showdown, but the run out and texture hits your perceived range in a way, that you can turn your marginal SD value into a bluff to fold out the bottom of villains value range.

For example,

We open 99 UTG one villain calls from the sb.

Flop comes j 7 2 two tone. We fire out a cbet and villain calls. (ok spot we beat over half his continuing range.)

Turn: 10x Now it's kind of a meh spot. A bet really only gets called by hands that beat us and the occasional flush/gutter. (Probably a good spot to check down and try to see a cheap showdown)

River Kx Now, this runout is god awful for our actual hand but lets think about our perceived range for a second.

In our villains eyes our hand looks like some jx some 10x and a lot of AK KQ type hands that checked for equity purposes on the turn. If our villain called with a random jack, or 9/10 type of hand it behooves us to put in a value type bet to fold out those hands. We know villain doesn't check a set or two pair to us and he can almost never have a k. So, this is the perfect example of our perceived range crushing his.

There's also a COTW that is actually pretty helpful. Much more in depth than what I can provide.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...luffs-1349939/

Big thing is blockers. And position.

And I mean you just need to be up against a villain who is capable of folding a value hand which is just a rare find in llsnl.

HH

Competent villain opens mp to $25.

I flat btn with AQ for whatever reason. We are $1k effective

Flop is ($50) QJ3

He leads $35

He knows I'm flatting btn wide, so I weight his cbet more towards value but I mean of course he can have AK here sometimes and value hands I'm ahead of like KQ/AJ etc.

Turn ($120) 9

He leads $60

I now know two things. He has a value hand and he doesn't like it. He's not the type to induce or anything, I'd seen him bet his big hands big as most do.

I tank for a second and make it $135. This is obv not a value raise. Well it is and it isn't, see below. (Value on a bluff)

I chose this sizing for a couple of reasons. It looks like I want a call just ridiculously bad. And it gets me more value on a bluff. (when he flats here I'm obv betting large otr and he folds that a high percentage of the time). So like I almost want him to flat here...even with a hand that is beating me, if that makes sense.

He tanks a bit and folds AA face up

But I mean again like 90% of llsnl villains are just not folding AA there ever. So it is really villain dependent. I was actually surprised he folded that to the click back.

Also notice it's more so "range merging" than completely bluffing. Like, I still could have been ahead of his value range (KQ). But I had the stack size to click back turn setting up a big river in a spot where villain was capped a lot of the time.

1. Hand can never win when you bet and get called. If you understand this, then you are bluffing when you bet. Pretty simple really.

However, if this hand can win a showdown with no river bets, then betting, thinking you have the best hand a % of time called, this is turning your hand into a bluff. Most times called you won't win. Bad idea.

I don't think I got my thoughts out there real well. But "turning your hand into a bluff" is generally a losing strategy. You either have SD value, value betting value, or bluffing value. Insanely rare to have 2/3

This is the latest trend and almost all attempts I see are utter spew. Linked articel is good, but the fact that you are searching for spots to do it is not a good thing, IMO. Think about why you make any bet and apply the same concepts.

Above post is not correct. It is simply that we have higher EV from bluffing than calling/checking.

Again, don't put the cart before the horse. It really takes a deep understanding of those equities and then the situations become obvious. Those are the unsexy, every pot, repetitive maths you have to do well first I'm afraid.

Again, maybe my description wasn't coming out right. But based on the title, "Turning your hand into a bluff" is NEVER profitable. Ever.

That is, if we believe in the definition that is most commonly understood.

10-20nl last night.

4 handed table, effective stack in this hand is about $2400-$2700. I won't get the amounts exact, but you'll get the idea.

A standard 4x pfr, with two callers.

Flop: 532 two tone.
Donk bet from the SB for about $160. Two calls, pot = $720

Turn: 5
SB bets $320, 1 caller, pot = $1440

River: 9, no flush made. SB checks, Player bets $400

SB tanks, finally calls, bettor shows K2s for bottom pair. SB shows 44.

As the story goes, K2 had a hand with showdown value when checked to on the river. But turns his hand into a bluff that cannot win if called, like ever. I suppose it's slightly possible an A high could call once in a while but so rarely that it's hardly worth thinking about.

More importantly. K2 does not think he is putting out a bluff, when he bets. He in fact thinks he'll be called with worse hands often enough to be profitable. In other words he thinks it's a value bet!

However, checking behind IS profitable. His hand wins more times when checked to on the river and goes to show down. All the combo draws missed. Basically he beats all bluffs.

Betting this K2 hand, w/o believing it is 100% a bluff, is the perfect description of "turning your hand into a bluff".

Again, OTR, your choices are, Betting for value, Bluffing for value, checking behind for SD value. All are single options. We never have 2/3 in these spots.

As previously mentioned by someone else, this is a great spew spot I see daily. Turning hands that have SD value into bluffs.

I believe your example is one of a 2 way bet - a bet that can sometimes get a better hand to fold or sometimes get a worse hand to call

Op was asking about turning a made hand into a bluff.. where you KNOW your hand is no good

Ex. Good TAG Villain raises you call in position with AQ

Flop comes QT3r
Villain cbet you call

Turn comes a 4
Villain bets again.. you figure villain can still bet worse for value (KQ) or just could be barreling so you call again

River comes a 9
Villain bets again.. you know this villain rarely 3 barrels as a bluff and that he can value bet light.. so now you raise and try to get him to fold his thin value bets

That's an example of where a normal fishy player would just call and get shown QQ+ or whatever.. but we recognize that our hand is no longer good on the river so we turn our hand into a bluff

Of course there are many factors we need to take into consideration before considering a play like this..but having it in your arsenal and knowing when to use it is a very powerful tool





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Pretty much never at 1/2.

The problem with this is all about terminology.


Turning ones hand into a bluff is 100% NEG EV. Whereas, BLUFFING is not.

Turning our hand into a bluff is betting a hand that when called is NEVER good but we don't seem to think we are bluffing. We are not saying, "well only way I can win is to bet". Which would be 100% a bluff. That's fine.

Turning our hand into a bluff always involves a hand that has SD value. In other words, it can win at showdown w/o a bet, but never wins when called.

Another example from today in a 1-3 game:

utg+1 pfr's to $12 (relative stacks say 100bb's)
MP1 THREE BETS to $45
UTG+1 calls.

pot = $90

Flop: 963 rainbow.

UTG+1 BETS into the 3 bettor for $50, MP1 calls.

pot = $190

Turn: K

UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

River: K

UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $65, UTG+1 CALLS.

MP1 shows TT, UTG+1 shows JJ

MP1 thought he was "THIN VALUE betting river". Yet in a 3 bet pot, played like this, with these players, TT is NEVER EVER a river value bet. It loses 100% of the time when called. HOWEVER, it does have SHOWDOWN value. It can win in some showdowns with no river action.

In other words, 88 or less is never calling a river bet here, nor is AQ, in a 3-bet pot (pf). These are the only hands TT beats, and he has showdown value vs them but not betting value.

I'm of the opinion folks are getting confused with terminology. "Turning your hand into a bluff" never wins. Bluffing wins some % of time when we know we cannot win in a showdown with no action. Or even bluff raising for that matter. But usually that involves more wettish boards.