Homer, I would highly suggest cutting down on your tips/meals. That 50 cents per year is seriously cutting into your profits.

It's good that you have your sights set high. If you are able to duplicate Homer's success at the poker table maybe Duke will stake you. Fair warning though: I hear he keeps his place a mess.

I travel a lot, but majority of my hours are in the same area as you.

I do not lump promo $ in with regular results. Keep track of that separately.



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nice graphs Homer and Zippy! keep up the good work

Very respectable. Nice work.

Noticed you've got a ton more sessions than I with 1k less hours. Your average session length is 3.6 and mine is 8.6. Could this impact win rate?

My image impacts my win rate. When I've got a pile of chips in front of me, the game usually gets easier during that session. And for the majority of my sessions, I've got a pile at some point regardless of if I'm really up or down that session. This is because I always get 3x max buy in from the cage and anytime I'm 25 or more less than max I pull greens out of my pocket to top off.

Auto top off helps my image by making me look like I'm winning, even if I'm not. It also makes sure I can get full value when those big pots versus bad players comes along. Worst feeling in the world is not covering the spot at your table that can't fold aces when you flop a set.

No way session length combined with winning image accounts for everything, but I I'm confident it does contribute positively to my hourly.

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+1 to all this

Yeah. I noticed I can get away with many more bluffs when I have 2x+ the max BI in front of me. For most recs, the thought process is "he's running hot, don't wanna get coolered."

It is really fascinating how much action you get when you have a losing image and vice versa

Congrats to QS, Zippy's and Homer's giraffes; especially Zippy's as this is one of the larger sample size ones we've seen posted on here for the kiddie table stakes (nice results, imo).

G417hoursawayfrompostinga4Khour1/3NLgiraffe,unlessIgobustofirstG

My background in HUNL helped my live NL game more then anything.. PLO a close second.

I'm curious but does anyone know of any poker players that strictly play say 1/3nl mostly and don't move up to 2/5nl because of the skill level?


I remember years ago when i was in vegas for a few months, i played most 1/3nl which had a 500 max buyin. My winrate i believe was something like 24/hr which is 8bb/hr. I was considered a reg there as most of the dealers seen me play a lot etc.


I know people say that many players who play 2/5nl will play 5/10nl if the game is good. But if not, then they would just play their usual 2/5nl etc. However like i read many times already, it seems 10bb/hr is pretty much the highest one i could make but i believe some people say crushers could hit 15bb/hr. Is that true? So if you put a 10/20nl top reg in a 2/5nl game, his winrate would probably be like 15bb/hr?


Also back to my original question. When i played 1/3nl many years ago back in vegas, i rarely was at a table where i felt i was outclassed. There were definitely times that i recalled this. I recalled once at the wynn and it was a 1/3 game and there were a few guys who play 5/10nl playing because they were waiting for their 5/10 seat etc. I easily was probably one of the worst player at that table because i think only 1 or 2 players were bad. The thing was back then i recalled there were lot of fishy players back at the table at the 1/3nl in vegas mostly.


So if thats the case, wouldn't it make for many 2/5nl players who say have a 5-6bb/hr winrate of 25-30/hr to play 1/3nl if they could make 8bb-10bb where the skill level is definitely a bit noticeable. Its like how some ppl mention it isn't a good idea to play 5/10nl where the winrate is 6bb and you have a much tougher game and more variance than playing their standard 2/5nl game where their winrate is say 8bb/hr.


Also im curious but to those people who play poker in vegas at the 1/3 and 2/5 and maybe even the 1/2 level, do you notice a huge skill difference from say 2012 to now? Are most 1/3 games in vegas pretty bad nowadays? I mean how many bad players are there really anymore that play poker? Its been a while since i played any live poker but from what i read online, it seems like 1/2 the table are regs at least in 2/5 and probably even so at 1/3?

That's a lot of questions to respond to, but keep in mind in many poker rooms the rake structure is the same dollar amount for 1/2 and 2/5, which means 2/5 is much more rake efficient.

Say you have two identically difficult 1/2 and 2/5 tables and pretend the 2/5 plays *exactly* twice as big so all game stats are doubled and your observed winrate at the 1/2 table is $20/hr.

$20/hr at 1/2 means your "true" winrate is $30/hr, but you lose $10/hr to rake. Now say you bump it up to 2/5 and since it's evenly skilled and plays exactly twice as big, your "true" winrate of $30/hr doubles to $60/hr, you lose $10/hr to rake and now your observed winrate is $50/hr.

This is obviously under unrealistic assumptions, but I hope it illustrates how the lower rake (in proportion to winrate) at 2/5 is very beneficial to your bottom line.

In addition, but less important: You can probably play more hands and create more value when you aren't so oppressed by rake.

Imagine a 2/5 game with $0/hand rake. You can play X% of hands profitably.
Imagine a 2/5 game with $5/hand rake. You can play Y% of hands profitably.
Imagine a 2/5 game with $100/hand rake. You can play Z% of hands profitably.

X > Y >>>>> ... >>>>> Z

Generally, if you're going to be able to beat 1/3, you're going to do reasonably well at 2/5... at least to the point where the aforementioned rake factor is enough of an incentive to play it even if your WR is slightly lower.

The jump from 2/5 to 5/10 is quite different from the 1/3 --> 2/5 jump. For a lot of rooms, 5/T doesn't get up all that often and so they'll play it when it runs. But if there's just 1 table of 5/10 running and it's full of the best 2/5 players, it's definitely NOT a good game to sit at. Basically your hourly will be better sitting at 2/5 which should have a stead stream of drunks coming in. If there's a whale or some bad players on the 5/10, then you might want to consider that game.

For me, I only have the option of 2/5 and 5/5 at my casino. I choose to play the 2/5 because the 5/5 is the same reg-heavy game with very few fish sitting it. The fish rego to 2/5 and come play with me to punt off money. If a whale sits the 5/5, I might see if I can swap but otherwise there's not much point.

Doesn't work that way. For a couple of reasons. Firstly, there's a ceiling of how winning you can be in a game... after a while, rake will cap how much you can win in a game. Also, a 10/20 reg is playing very very different poker to what would be optimal in a 2/5 game. I believe a 10/20 reg may struggle to adjust down to the level of play found in a 2/5 whereas the top 2/5 regs know the nuances of the population, they know all the regs, and they know the meta.

Sure, and it comes down to looking at the table and figuring out what game is going to be more profitable. Usually, however, you can find a 2/5 which is going to be fairly easy to the point you'll struggle winning more at a 1/3. Also variance is a factor and if you're on a super short bankroll maybe you'd prefer coasting at the 1/3. Or you could even do **** like 1/3 during daynit hours and then 2/5 at 1am on a Sat etc.

What yas reckon of my live graph, 1100 hours of cash mainly @ 2/5. 30k profit. Plus 6k profit from tourneys

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Nice recovery when you were in for 3600 at 1/2

Hey all. Im just curious but do those of you who play live even play online anymore or are most of you strictly live players?


Im an american that relocated outside the us to play online but it was mostly sngs/ small stakes mtt etc and as many of you probably know, online has gotten very tough etc. Back when i was in vegas say back in 2012, i played mostly 1/3nl in vegas and i considered most of the games soft. I played mostly at 2 casinos there etc.


I assume now, the 1/3nl games are pretty bad nowadays in vegas? My winrate was something like 24/hr at 1/3nl over i believe like over 400 hours or a bit more. But since i havent played live cash since i played mostly sng and low stakes mtt online, well im sure my skills are much difference since i use small bet sizing in my format as oppose to cash where you have 100bb etc.


I'm just curious but are there players that play 1/3nl for a living and some 2/5 only when the game looks good and actually play that for a living? I know people say the goal in poker is to move up to higher stakes but as you move up, the competition gets a lot tougher. So yes it might feel bad if a person plays only 1/3nl and stays at those stakes but if the game is very little variance, i could see how someone might just want to play those stakes.

I assume most live pros who play for a living probably are 2/5nl players? Then after that its probably 5/10nl and up? But of course the issue is the player pool at 5/10nl is so small so there can't be ton of winners. And its hard to win enough money to sustain themselves at 1/2nl if say its a 200 dollar buyin. But 1/3 with a 500 max buyin, im sure there are certain players that could average 12bb/hr? Like the really good 2/5 and 5/10nl players?


Would you guys say live cash is much profitable than online sngs/tournaments especially if you play the lower stakes etc? Because even the low stakes sngs/mtts are not that soft anymore as you guys might know. And i know in american sites like WPN, people say even 50nl is reg infested and is probably the nittiest site etc.


Im curious how many players out there play 2/5nl and do it for 5+ or more years and average say at least 40k a year. I assume there are but not that many right

Hi guys... just randomly ran into this thread and figure I'd jump in to contribute. Feel free to ask me any questions.

I was a former Pokerstars SNE, and now play mainly at Winstar casino and underground Dallas games. I play mainly the 2/5 games because I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so I've never really tried to build a roll to move up because I rather invest most of my money on ideas. For a while, my bankroll never got past $5000 and I was able to make a living playing 2/5 with it while being the sole breadwinner for my family and putting my daughter through Montessori school.

I recently went busto in 2015 from the vapor business (long story) and at my lowest point in May of 2015, I was $50k in debt to friends & family from doing business, tax issues with IRS, have pending felony charges for organized crime & money laundering, and $600 cash in my hand. Luckily, I've been able to turn things around with that $600...

This year, I made the commitment to drop all ideas and businesses, and just focus on playing as much poker as I can to get out of debt and get my life back on track. My goal was 2500hrs this year. I should reach my goal, be out of debt, and have a real poker bankroll by the end of this year. (as a side note, I've recently deposited some money on Global Poker and may be putting in the rest of my time this year online instead of Live as I've been beating the 1/2 there for $5000 over 14k hands so far... too lazy to calculate BB/100)

Here are my results... one key note is that I recently went on a 20k downswing from late August to now (September) playing high stakes PLO (2/5/25 straddle), which impacted my data dramatically, I went from:

~$70/hr to current hourly
~12+ BB/hr to current
66% cash rate to current

This year's giraffe so far:


Current up to date data:


Games I play:


Hours/Months/Days I play:


And finally, some motivational stacks... The game is 2/5 with a capped Buyin of $500:

very impressive!! thanks for sharing! i have an almost identical overall winrate! but ive put in half as many hours as you year to date. one question i have is, do you know how the big bet/hr, std dev thing is calculated and what do they mean? ve never really bothered and have not asked anyone...

Jesus Christ... This is really a 2/5 NLH 100bb cap???

You've put a decent number of hours at 5/T this year. Was that at Winstar or in underground games? Small sample size but you've made nearly as much playing 5/T as you've made playing 2/5 this year.

I like this pic.

Sure is.

Great results man - keep crushing.

Our results are eerily similar, though a much different breakdown of games (mine also lifetime not ytd) - will be posting my updated graph in 90 more hours once I hit 2k

4Timmy, what is your biggest stack in the $2/5 $500 max game?

4timmy,

Dat work ethic! Nice job

4timmy, how would you describe your game (what makes it unique) in a few sentences.

Do you 3b more pre, barrel more post? Overbet? Or more passive? Open limp, flat call more? Etc.

BB/hr is pretty much how many BB you've won divided by how many hours you've played.

I don't know how standard dev is calculated or what it really means. I've read up on it a bit and I think it is how much you deviate from your average. For example, if you average $50 per hour and play 10 hours, you should average $500, but if your SD is $500, then you you're usually up $1000 or even as a standard.