1/2 game at local cardroom. My image is loose and aggressive. I have been getting called down light. Since most of the table is relatively low-level thinking, I have not been balancing my range, as such my checking range is weak and stronger players have been floating my flop cbets and bluffing the turn after I check.

I have some history with villain, relatively loose but not ridiculous and aggressive player, very bluffy when checked to in position, and will almost always raise or 3bet pre with premium hands.

EP limper is weak and very loose.

Hero (MP) ~$600
Villain (B) ~$300

1 EP limper to hero who raises to $12 with 88. Villain and BB call.

Flop (pot 37): K95

BB checks, Hero bets $26. Villain calls, BB folds.

Turn (pot 89): 7

Hero checks, villain bets $40. Hero calls.

River (pot 169): 10

Hero tanks then checks, villain bets $50.

Given my relatively strong rep based off my turn call, Villain will be checking behind Tx+ and value betting K9+. However, since based off my loose image I can also have multiple flush draws, middle to high pairs, and combo draws (all of which will fold to a second barrel) he is still capable of bluffing all missed draws, with or without a small made pair or pocket pair. I don't believe K5s is in his preflop range here, maybe K7s. However, given the multiple straight and flush draws on the flop and villain's aggressive nature, I can exclude any flopped set or two pair. I don't believe 77 would have called the flop with another player left to act, and villain would have checked the turn with TT, even with a spade. As I said before, villain should be checking behind lower two pairs so I'm not giving him credit for T9 97 or 75. KT is an extremely remote possibility IMO because KTo is not in his preflop range and KTs almost always checks behind on the turn (dominated vs Kx which could easily have the nut or second-nut flush draw as well since I raised pre from MP with 1 limper).

Given the strength of my range on the turn and river, and based on past history with the villain, I'd expect him to bet for maximum value on both the turn and river with any flush. Given our stack sizes, I'd definitely expect him to bet bigger on the turn in order to build a larger pot on the river. Perhaps he'd try and get a little tricky by betting smaller on the turn and then try to rep a bluff on the river, but I think his turn bet is large enough to exclude that possibility.

That leaves straights. The only straights in his preflop range are QJ and 86s (J8s is too loose for him in a raised pot). Given my flop bet sizing and the flush draw on board, I find it unlikely that villain would call my flop bet with a gutshot unless he also had overcards, which doesn't fit this board. Straight hands also exclude QJ and 86, since those hands would have made flushes.

Given his action, I could not give him credit for any hand that I was behind of. After the river came out, I could see myself losing a showdown if villain checked behind, but I just could not see myself laying this hand down unless he bet something ridiculous like 80%+. After seeing his river bet size I called almost instantly.



So, did I just crush a grown man's soul, or did I fall victim to FPS and happen to get lucky?


Also - I know there is an argument for checking the flop, but given villain's displayed aggression I knew I had to be aggressive since checking essentially concedes to all flush draws and gutshots that pick up a pair on the turn. Even if he checks behind I have to give up on the turn if any high card other than a K comes out. I also know that if he calls my cbet and the turn comes a blank, or I pick up a gutshot or hit my set, I can probably get him off 9x or TT-QQ with a second barrel, at the same time getting value from flush draws which make up a significant portion of his range. Betting also forces gutshots to fold, making turn decisions much easier if any card 6-8 or T-Q comes out.

Between you, with 4th and sixth pair, you managed to put bets in on every street.

Were either of you bluffing? I don´t think so. You cannot imagine he will fold better otf, right? And you are a big dog to improve. Folding out overcard equity? IDK.

The same for him. He cannot expect you will fold turn or river with much more than a pair of fives?

You weren´t value betting, either. I don´t think it´s FPS, I think it´s TOBBLTMBTANBLMABHFOWWDMBOTOTB (Terror of being bluffed leading to meaningless bet that achieves nothing but losing money against better hands, folding out worse whilst denying my bluffy opponent the opportunity to bluff.)

To be fair, it was mainly him, and given the way he played this hand, I cannot see how you are ever doing anything but simultaneously calling as he bets.

These little stabs are a bit pointless. I have absolutely no idea what his bet on the river was about given his holding.

wtf

that whole post is like some totally results-oriented self-congratulatory brag

curious why you're leading flop when you expect to be bluffed when you check, also curious why you don't think villain ever has Kx or 9x that isn't 2p

I have a loose image and he knows I have air a lot of the time OOP on the flop. He commented earlier that "one thing I can expect from you almost always is a continuation bet." Villain will call the cbet light with smaller pairs and any flush draw, and sometimes he is floating. Most of the time I have the best hand on the flop, and given his aggressive play I was protecting my hand.

Villain will raise the flop with K9+ which he rarely has and I can fold immediately, if he flats my cbet I know I can make any pair lower than a K fold since my turn betting has been very straightforward up to now.

But you c/c'd turn and river. How do you expect to make him fold, stare menacingly at him?

I'm not saying betting turn or river would have been smart, just pointing out that you don't really have a plan.

extremely difficult to discern when he's bluffing and when he has Kx or 9x. i'd rather not play a large pot out of position with 3rd/4th pair when I can take it down on the flop while still getting value from flush draws and smaller pairs, and retaining initiative.

what hand that Kx/9x beats does villain think will ever call that river? unless you mean flop and just because villain could have Kx/9x doesn't mean check the flop. this is the same logic as cbetting KK or QQ on Axx except adjusting for having third pair by continuing more aggressively on the turn if a blank comes.

This is like some 9th-dimensional FPS. It's not that you don't have a plan, it's that you're doing things for a dozen different and contradictory reasons.

i c/c'd because the flush hit the turn and I wasn't prepared to turn my hand into a bluff when lots of Kx/9x/TT-QQ also have a decent flush draw. My plan was to fire any non-spade ace though 9 which is over half the deck.

But it came, and you didn't.

turn was a spade...

sorry if i was unclear, the plan was to fire a second barrel on the turn. i check-called because the turn didn't improve any of his non flush draw range except 77, but improved his perceived range substantially so i felt he was going to fire with any two cards and i could call profitably and possibly induce another bluff on the right river (which came)

results in thread: check
OP defending himself to responses: check

I lol'd.

Yeah, this hand reeks of fish on fish violence.

I just overlimp preflop and setmine. Poker is ez, make it so, imo.

We're now in a very tough position on the flop, especially with floaty/bluffy button behind us. Ya, we're going to cbet and, ya, Button is going to float. Now what? As played, I probably just check/fold the turn cuz Kx and flush is now ahead of us.

Poker at this level is so very very very easy if we make it so. Overlimp with medium pairs and help create a very multiway pot with as many morons in the pot as possible; flop a set, profit, otherwise, fold and move on to the next hand. Why are we making things difficult?

GcluelessNLnoobG

I also raise PF with 150bb stacks, probably fire one cbet here, and then I'm about done with the hand after crappy turn card. As played I'm folding turn since you are just about never good here and often drawing dead.

[x] tl;dr
[x] everything got there on the turn
[x] villain beats almost nothing on the river
[x] FPS
[ ] sick read

I thought it was terrible at first glance since what to we beat, but I don't hate it so much now, maybe I'm being results oriented. Its much easier to piece this one together once you know his hand. If you know he doesn't value bet thinly with kings here, despite everything getting there, there aren't many hands villain would value bet for this size besides maybe a weird two pair or a turned straight. Though if his range is that weak its probably better to just bet the turn and c/c when you have the 8 spades.

Truer and more universal words were never spoken.

Some really low-level thinking right there. You're the type of player I would have leveled in this situation. If you dr you don't know my line of reasoning and shouldn't comment bc I'm folding 3rd pair or worse on the river to a bet over 90% of the time.

If by everything got there on the turn you mean loose-villain-flatted-must-have-flush-draw then sure, but IMO you're just losing too much value with middle to high pairs to check-fold the turn every time, and I never get called by worse on turn.

Sure, I may be behind his turn betting range, but that doesn't make me behind his river betting range. His range is so polarized here and I've eliminated most combinations of hands he is betting for value. He has been betting at least 2/3 times when checked to - there are just way more instances that villain has air or a low pair turned into a bluff than he has an actual value hand in this spot.

I agree with your reasoning but I did not have the 8 of spades in my hand.

I realize this, I mean sometimes you will have the 88 with a spade and it will be safer to call with that hand since you sometimes improve when you are beat on the turn. With 88 with no spade, If he has a range so weak that you are thinking of check/calling the turn, it may be better to just try to pick up the pot on the turn with a bet. Folding out a weak 9 is a good result, and I'd rather just pick up the pot vs tj with a spade than hero call here since it has so much equity vs our exact hand. Plus we likely fold out 5x with a spade and guarantee our equity vs that hand-and when we have 88 with a spade we don't mind so much when that hand calls and improves. Its a tough spot no matter what and I think its easy to not want to bet the turn with a hand so weak since you really hate getting called, but it may be the better line. (and I check/call far more than most)

To try to put it more plainly, when we check/call the turn, even his worst hands tend to have good equity vs our exact hand. We may be better trying to just pick up the pot on the turn. Us having the best hand on the turn, and still having the best hand on the river and being comfortable calling a river bet is not going to happen all that often on this board.

This is just vs players with a really weak range on the turn.

Okay I understand what you're saying now. I will take it into account for future hands.