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Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad

09-17-2015 , 02:25 PM
Running good at a short-handed 8/16 table and have table in a depressed mood about it. I have pocket 7s MP, and limp after an EP limper. CU, a sane player with a possible few tricks up his sleeve, raises. BB, EP limper, and I call.

Flop is: Qc9c2d. Checks to CU, who bets. I have a feeling he's c-betting any flop here, so EP limper calls, and I call.
Turn: 5c. Checks through.
River: 7s

EP limper bets, I raise, CU 3-bets. EP folds, and I tank for a long time. I know CU obvi sees the flush on the board, and I'm thrown off by this raise. I finally fold the hand, and he shows down a bluff - tells me he HAD to turn his marginal hand into a bluff to win. WTF, I play bad. It never even crossed my mind he was pulling something. Am I always calling in this spot vs. a sane player who can read the board?
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 02:34 PM
I'd raise preflop 100% of the time and I'd call the river 3 bet.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 02:42 PM
You have a set. The pot is big. You are heads up and closing the action.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 02:46 PM
Thx, I think I psyched myself out by trying to tighten up one of my big leaks - paying off with second best hand. But HU and closing the action, I should definitely have called. Doh!
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilspoon
Thx, I think I psyched myself out by trying to tighten up one of my big leaks - paying off with second best hand. But HU and closing the action, I should definitely have called. Doh!
Bear in mind, while paying off when you are never good is a LHE leak, paying off when you are almost never good (or even where you legitimately don't know that you are never good) in a big pot is not one.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 02:59 PM
I wouldn't have raised pre but I would have called the river
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 04:26 PM
Raise pre.

As played, if he really checked a flush behind on the turn, he's quite special. You should call and find out if he's that special.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 05:12 PM
Why the hell would he check behind on the turn with a made flush Oo?
Too lose money on purpose ?
When a play do not make sense , it is often correct to call because it is a bad bluff.
Easy call river .
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 05:12 PM
$16 for tilt insurance is a bargain.

And raise pre.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 05:16 PM
Wouldnt fold river and would deffo raise pre
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
Why the hell would he check behind on the turn with a made flush Oo?
Because deceiving people into betting into your monster so that you can raise on a big street gives people an erection. I've seen a guy who must run at 70/60 full ring do this before w/ the stone nuts HU IP on the turn.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 09:05 PM
I probably would have raised the river again. But I'm im a nut job.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-17-2015 , 09:47 PM
raise pre flop. call river because he's bluffing. but i'm biased by the results.

Last edited by rodeo; 09-17-2015 at 10:13 PM.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
Bear in mind, while paying off when you are never good is a LHE leak, paying off when you are almost never good (or even where you legitimately don't know that you are never good) in a big pot is not one.
I personally hate this advice. There will be so many times against sane passive opponents where you can correctly fold getting 11-1. Not a snap fold, or an easy fold, but a correct fold. Calling can often be close to a 1 BB mistake.


The bigger takeaway here is that turn was checked. Because of that, it's an easy call.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Because deceiving people into betting into your monster so that you can raise on a big street gives people an erection. I've seen a guy who must run at 70/60 full ring do this before w/ the stone nuts HU IP on the turn.
HU is not the same thing vs multiway .
It might sometimes make sense HU but never multiway.
I mean 2 caller is like gaining a raise vs 1 player, it is so bad multiway to fail to bet for trapping purpose, especially in a big pot multiway that has been raise pf...

And anyway, for OP food for toughts.
If you fold here a set, imagine all the hands you fold!
Folding sets here mean your opponents could bluff almost any 2 card and make money because you fold almost evrything except the nutz.

Seem you made a fold like this hand was played in a NL context ( not saying in NL it was a fold ), if you had your entire stack behind maybe it would made sone sense to fold, but when in limit it cost only 1 more bet, folding a hand this strong is insane, especially after the bizarre action on turn .
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 08:45 AM
I think a lot of otherwise good players talk themselves into folding too much in big pots, especially at smaller stakes. I mean when you are getting 11-1 you should be losing 11 out of 12 times that you call closing the action, and I don't think most people are.

Also, I agree with Rodeo that posting the results of a hand is likely to generate a bias in people, and probably no one is going to reply and say you were right to fold.

And raise preflop. You should probably never have an overlimping range after 1 other limper at a short handed table.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I'd raise preflop 100% of the time and I'd call the river 3 bet.
I would raise pre and call down the river
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 07:43 PM
Id be depressed too if you were running good at my table.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-18-2015 , 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
I personally hate this advice. There will be so many times against sane passive opponents where you can correctly fold getting 11-1. Not a snap fold, or an easy fold, but a correct fold. Calling can often be close to a 1 BB mistake.


The bigger takeaway here is that turn was checked. Because of that, it's an easy call.
Really phunk? You routinely raise-fold sets on only semi-scary boards in huge pots?

If you are a brilliant exploitation genius with perfect reads, fine, do it. For 99 percent of players, my advice is correct. And for the 1 percent of players who think they have those perfect reads, my advice is ALSO correct, because most of them won't be as perfect as they think they are (which is the whole point of Izmet's fur coat story).

As leo doc says, tilt insurance. And bear in mind, while I'm a very mediocre strategist, leo doc is an extremely good player. You probably shouldn't believe me, but you should believe him.

I've made a fair amount of money over the years at limit hold 'em while basically almost never folding anything really good for one more bet closing the action in a very big pot. Guess I'm an idiot who gives terrible advice.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-19-2015 , 04:05 AM
Your winrate probably won't be negatively affected if you you never folded a set in limit Holdem. It's possible to construct multiway scenarios where the evidence we are beat is overwhelming, but they occur VERY infrequently.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-19-2015 , 01:38 PM
This is more an exercise in hand reading than an argument over big folds. Your opponents line is bull**** and you should be aware of that.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-20-2015 , 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
You have a set. The pot is big. You are heads up and closing the action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
Bear in mind, while paying off when you are never good is a LHE leak, paying off when you are almost never good (or even where you legitimately don't know that you are never good) in a big pot is not one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
Really phunk? You routinely raise-fold sets on only semi-scary boards in huge pots?

If you are a brilliant exploitation genius with perfect reads, fine, do it. For 99 percent of players, my advice is correct. And for the 1 percent of players who think they have those perfect reads, my advice is ALSO correct, because most of them won't be as perfect as they think they are (which is the whole point of Izmet's fur coat story).

As leo doc says, tilt insurance. And bear in mind, while I'm a very mediocre strategist, leo doc is an extremely good player. You probably shouldn't believe me, but you should believe him.

I've made a fair amount of money over the years at limit hold 'em while basically almost never folding anything really good for one more bet closing the action in a very big pot. Guess I'm an idiot who gives terrible advice.

I dislike the generalization that "Pot is big, must call". That is poor analysis. You are putting too much emphasis on the size of the pot. Consider the strength of your hand, and where it fits in your range. Put your opponent on a range. Sometimes, you beat literally 0% of that range.

Say we have 44 in a 6way pot that was capped PF. Board comes A25-T-9. PF capper bets river, and its folded to you, last to act, getting 20-1.

This is my interpretation of your advice: "The pot is so big! we might be good, call."
The proper solution is to put your opponent on a range, compare it to your hand, and consider the price. The same thing you do with any river spot. You should not be swayed into irrational decisions just because the pot is really big.


In the actual hand, we have a set. That is really strong. Villain's line doesn't make sense, doesn't rep much. That is why we call. Not because "pot is so big, closing the action"
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-20-2015 , 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
I dislike the generalization that "Pot is big, must call". That is poor analysis. You are putting too much emphasis on the size of the pot. Consider the strength of your hand, and where it fits in your range. Put your opponent on a range. Sometimes, you beat literally 0% of that range.
If the size of the pot is not the #1 factor to consider in any hands, what is the factor you're refering about ?

i am on lawdude side because, lhe is SD game while big fold is more of a NL concept game.

When it only cost 1 more BB bet to see the river in limit, when the pot is big the cost is minimal to be wrong and terrible to make a bad fold , while in NL making big fold do not cost has much because when you are wrong you loose the rest of your stack.

Of course sometimes a fold is correct but your example is pretty bad, comparing a set on a 3card flush ( not even 4 ..) and a measly pair of 4 on A25T9 6 ways...

Here yeah, the line is freakn bad not to call the river but even if villain would have bet the turn i would of call the river ( tho raising the river would of been really bad ) because a set is still pretty strong in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasqui
Your winrate probably won't be negatively affected if you you never folded a set in limit Holdem. It's possible to construct multiway scenarios where the evidence we are beat is overwhelming, but they occur VERY infrequently.
+1

Btw, i would really like you post in this one tho i think i already know the answer :http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...e-nit-1560784/

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 09-20-2015 at 02:45 PM.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-20-2015 , 03:01 PM
To reiterate: This is what you do. (1) consider opponent's range, (2) consider your range, (3) consider the price you are getting. You do all three. To completely focus on the 3rd factor and ignore the first two is bad advice.

What I hate is this magical advice that if the pot is big, you should call. That is an idea that constantly gets floated around here. That is incomplete poker analysis. Do all 3 things. No exceptions.

---

There was previously a hand posted here where villain 3bs preflop. Flop comes 9 high, we have 99. Flop goes 5 bets. Turn is an ace, we bet and villain raises or 3b or 4b or something. It is really really easy to say, "Pot is big, at least call down". It is really easy to say "Pot is big, we have set, at least call down". But if you want to be a complete poker player, you need to do all three things mentioned at the beginning of my post. If your analysis says that villain virtually always has AA here, then you fold turn, and calling down could be a sizeable mistake.

Last edited by phunkphish; 09-20-2015 at 03:07 PM.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-20-2015 , 06:34 PM
double post

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 09-20-2015 at 06:50 PM.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote

      
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