Now we can all agree on the fact that this play doesn't actually get us a
free card, it gets us a card for half price. But I think we actually have
to pay more than half price.

IMO the proposal that we get the card for half price considers
only the situation where we miss our draw. Obviously if we don't hit
our flush/straight then we want to see the river as cheaply as possible and we end up paying half as much by getting a free ride on the turn.

On the other hand, if we do hit our draw, then in retrospect it would have been nice to be bet into on the turn so that we could have dragged in a bigger pot.

The counterintuitive result of the free card play is that players who know nothing about the free card play will win larger pots when they hit their draws. Now this is not necesarily true b/c we often like to raise our draws for value as well, but this is not at all relevant to the argument about the free card play.

I wanted to post this in the small stakes forums b/c I think it pertains much more to low limit holdem than no limit, where the free card play can save us way more than half price, anywhere up to a whole buy-in!

Now I didn't write this to trash the free card play. It is still the optimal move and I use it all the time b/c it saves me money. I will take any edge that I can get. All I'm sayiing is that it doesn't save us as much as it advertises.

And to me this emphasizes the critical point that in the game of poker all of our winnings come from getting the most out of thin edges. There is not usually a strategy that stands way abover all others. There is no get rich easy scheme. Out of all of the alternatives, the better ones are only slightly more favorable than the weaker ones. Money is won and lost at the margin.

You do not make the free card play five times. All five your opponent bets into you on the turn. One of the five you hit the draw and get an extra full bet as you say because he does so and you can raise him, but only if he calls your raise. The other four times you miss and cost yourself four full bets compared to the free card play when you call his turn bet to try again on the river instead of seeing the river for free. The free card play works fine and is definitely worth doing except for the times your opponent 3-bets your free card play because he has a monster or he figures you are making the free card play. In other words it all depends and you should not play the same all the time or your observant opponents will take advantage of you.

I think you are forgetting that there is value in raising as well. If someone is simply continue betting and you raise with a flush draw for a free card you are actually raising for value as well as giving you an option to continue bet or check on the turn giving you a free card on the river not the turn.

Try page 176 in WITHG; Stox and Zobags cover the idea, and have much the same take.

I think that you are missing one big value in the FC play; it can disguise your hand. People tend to put the raiser on a good hand, thus it is supposed to hide the fact that you hit your draw. In theory, the guy who put you on TPTK might decide to represent the draw, and he might tty to semi-bluff you out when you're holding the nuts. These days, so many people make these plays routinely that many think "draw" when they get raised on a scary board. In the day, this was a great way to get paid off on your draw.

Also, in the day, the good players were nits. LAGTAG wasn't a popular style in mid-limit live games. These plays helped with the good player's post flop Shania. It made every hand they played more profitable; he didn't always have the nuts when he raised.

Doug

Not sure about your live games but in mine I get a lot of freebies(cards that is). Sometimes on two streets cause players are too scared to bet their hands at times.

The free card play may prevent you from raising the turn when the flush comes and therefore cost you a few BB, but the flush draw only comes about 1/5 of the time on the turn.

There are several other benefits from making this play. If the flush comes on the turn, some players may be more likely to call your turn bet, because they think you might have raised TP or something on the flop. Also, when players realize you are raising draws, it will change your image and make them more likely to call your raises.