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So far, pretty much everyone here. I'm guessing you have around 40-45% raw equity, which would put your hand squarely in the bluffcatcher bin. When your opponents hold the hands that you want them to fold to your check raise, you have about 80% equity. Why would you want them to fold when you have so much equity? Plus, when you're beaten on the flop, you're just bloating a pot that you're only going to win about 10% of the time.

If you want to talk about exploiting players that check the turn too much, that's cool, but I'd rather exploitively fold when they bet the turn because this way I win the pot about 90% of when they check back the turn. Not to mention the fact that when they check, their hand is pretty faceup, which allows us to make awesome river decisions.

Your way, you're basically turning a bluffcatcher into a bluff against a passive player when it's very unlikely that a better hand will fold. I don't think making better hands fold is a necessary requirement of good bluffing, but it's certainly a bonus that isn't present in your strategy.

It's good that you want to exploit them for their faceup play on the turn, but I think you're making the wrong adjustment. Exploit passive players by exploitively folding, not by bluffing with bluffcatchers.

Seriously dude... haters always gona hate !

You do not even know the guy and are ready to apply 3 and 4th level thinking on him, please....

I do not know your backgroud that produce those kinda of ideas easily but anyway, BBB not like that.

Now if you do not believe this well believe w.e you want, like claiming c/r here instead a c/c raise is better...

i mean it so simple to prove anyway that c/r to fold 6 outs is not the best play.
It might better be in some situation like lot player who check behind turn but not all player are like that, get the point?

Win more money means what is the best strategy to use to win the most money vs better player ( using line for not getting exploited cause we are OOP as well).
You seem to say to win more money is to win more pot using an exploitive line (line your c/r) vs bad player ( because you can exploit them ).
Yes you are right, you make more money using exploitive line but it does not means it is the best play to win money cause exploitive line works only vs specific situation.
When you say only c/r this board with no c/c range vs all player that is where you are mistaking and would get kill vs better players, even more so being OOP...

ps: BBB already answer how to get your answer to see its not the best play c/r all hands here without a c/c range.
even another poster explicitly told you as well on page 3.
i think you need to go reread BBB post and do the math....

Can't see any problems with this, besides the fact you are going to have way more bad hands (gutshots + bottom pair) than strong hands oop. Players will call your check raise 100%. You're going to barrel turn and they can profitably raise probably Any gutshot+overs to middle pair +

Do you have an idea what your continuing range looks like on the A84 flop? What % is made/value hands, what % is draws/air and what % is 8x or worse?

Two questions.

1. What's your turn strategy when they call the flop check raise?

Bet?
Bet fold?
Check call?
Check fold?


2. If folding the 6 outer (and winning the pot) is your #1 priority, why not check raise ATC on the flop?

Players won't call cr 100%. They will quickly learn that he does this light and 3! Always when they are ahead and sometimes when not ahead making him lose the max.. I mentioned this earlier in a post that was ignored as he is too busy saying he is unjustly slighted.

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Why would they 3 bet flop when they can call entire range and raise turn. We open J-10 he calls. He c/r A82 flop we call and get to raise 7-9-Q turns for example. But to do this we have to delay our value hands as well.

He thinks people are just going to give up on the flop, but in reality they are going to fight for small pots like this in position and murder him on the turn.

LOL. AWESOME! So the other guy has opponents calling checkrasie 100 percent of time and you step it up 100 + by now 3betteing LOL. Show me my opponents never fold. Something tell me i'm gonna crush this game you describe even though it's not reality. Because you forget i do have the best hand more often than not on this flop. So that includes aces, sets, 2 pair. Also most late raisers have a very wide range of raising pre right? So if you want to jack it up pre with 64,65,j7,k7 type hands and now call on A82 flop now call the checkraise 100 percent of time when i'm holding one of these pairs or better YUM YUM. I can see how i get owned.

I thought the idea of thinking winning pots instead of thinking winning money was a leak? You seem to be fighting pretty hard to win this pot with nada? So which is it? One guy says winning pots not important it's winning money. But you're animal to win this pot!

Also you realize you don't win the pot on the turn when a 7-9-q hit right? All you do is pick up a draw and charge yourself even more if you decide to raise on turn on top. oh and i might threebet when you raise turn with some hands too right? Now you really charging yourself for this draw that is a very weak draw the times i have an ace or better. That's another good point. You're peeling to pick up draw on the turn into a small pot hu. Something tells me the math is on my side. this game gets juicier by the minute. This unreal world game you desrcibe might even be better than the fishes and average players who will just fold because they are beat and have air.

I know you're trying to "get me" by adding situations to fit your argument like calling 100 percent checkraises and such but it's hard when my points have some validation. Why are you trying to get me? Can't we all just get along? I'm not trying to get you. Peace!

Can you answer these questions? They are crucial to understanding your strategy.

[QUOTE=DarkCheck;45683432]I thought the idea of thinking winning pots instead of thinking winning money was a leak? You seem to be fighting pretty hard to win this pot with nada? So which is it? One guy says winning pots not important it's winning money. But you're animal to win this pot!

Also you realize you don't win the pot on the turn when a 7-9-q hit right? All you do is pick up a draw and charge yourself even more if you decide to raise on turn on top. oh and i might threebet when you raise turn with some hands too right? Now you really charging yourself for this draw that is a very weak draw the times i have an ace or better. That's another good point. You're peeling to pick up draw on the turn into a small pot hu. Something tells me the math is on my side. this game gets juicier by the minute. This unreal world game you desrcibe might even be better than the fishes and average players who will just fold because they are beat and have air.

I know you're trying to "get me" by adding situations to fit your argument like calling 100 percent checkraises and such but it's hard when my points have some validation. Why are you trying to get me? Can't we all just get along? I'm not trying to get you. Peace![/QUOTE

You do realize my distribution has way more value hands than other while your distribution is far weaker. And I still stand by my stance that we win money, not pots, it's just so happens when facing an opponent that check raises his entire range (which is far weaker than ours) oop we are going to be winning lots if money by playing super agro vs him.

[QUOTE=danduffy;45683828] Huh? How is my range far weaker than yours? My range for checkraising the flop is PAIRS or better for the most part(not any hand i call preflop, maybe that's what you're thinking?) You're range is your entire range you raise with from late position as you raise preflop and call my checkraise 100 percent of the time. So my range is far stronger than your range. Not only that my bb defending range is smaller than your preflop raising range to begin with making my range even stronger now on the flop than yours.

But we also know most people aren't calling checkraises here 100 percent(or anywhere close to that) on the flop anyway. You're twisting things to fit your argument. Like how does my standard opponent know my range for sure unless i play a ton with the guy. You know because i told you, so you now are adjusting. And even adjusting you come up short. In the real world people just fold to the checkraise because they think you have something that beats them(which we do) and they have nothing. Why continue into a small pot with air against someone who has u beat. That's how the standard poker play would think and react.

I'm talking about my range when I raise the turn being stronger than the range of hands you c/r flop with and presumably lead turn with.....


When the flop comes A86.

You have 45, 57, 59, 79, 7-10, 9-10, hands like J9 with backdoor fd.....
What about hands like KJ, KQ, K9? Button opens, you defend KQ and you check fold A82 flop? I find that unlikely and since you already stated you checkraise your entire continuing range your either check raising all of these hands every time (or folding them)

It's curious that in all this discussion nobody bothered to clarify what specific "late position" we are talking about.

Your equity with a middle pair differs greatly if your opponent is BU or, say, HJ. In some cases you have well above 50% equity and c/r for value might be more reasonable. In other cases it isn't.

Just qualitative reasoning, without math, is way too simplistic to provide accurate answers here.

Also, the strategy of always c/r or fold in these situations should definitely not be standard. It's not easy to properly prove, though a reasonably convincing qualitative argument could be constructed.

It seems strange to argue how "we" would adjust to your play. I'd assume you're making these plays because you think the villains haven't and maybe won't adjust. Thus saying how I'd play if you did that to me seems strange, as you might have a different read and might do other stuff. Now if the argument that most villains would adjust quickly and thus your play is unprofitable, that seems more to the point. I'm not sure that's the case here, tbh. From a pure strategy of exploiting what we find, we don't get to know how you play. If you're talking about a pure/balanced strategy of flop play, we'd need to know a lot more about your ranges to talk about "this strategy is so good, even if you knew exactly my plan you'd find little good you can do".

I think you mentioned in a previous post that you never check/call. Is that just this flop texture, or in general HU pots are you putting someone cbetting to the test on the flop? If it is based on board texture, what makes you decide?

You forgot bet call. Maybe because it hurts your argument of wanting to bluff raise turn?

My turn action is not set in stone. It depends on the player. If it's someone i know's game i can adjust. I mean i know the people that will peel with these light hands you describe and the people who have to have something to call the checkraise.(like an ace or middle to big pair). Against the light peelers i fire again(and adjust according here, if i've seen my opponent try a bluff raise on turn like this before i will call, or if i've seen "moves" of any sort in his game). Against the tight peelers i usually shut down unless i've seen them before do the call then fold turn. Like Some people want to see what you do on the turn before giving up their pocket pairs under ace.

I don't checkraise any 2 cards because i want to have the best hand. Which i will have more often than not. No need to checkraise with air into a small pot with the worst hand. I just give it up. If i checkraise any 2 cards means i'm checkraising everytime. If i do that than it will be obvious to all my opponents i just do it with any 2 and THEN they might start peeling at a much higher clip. One of the reason my play works is because there has to be an assumption to my opponent that i have something.

If i have a tight image at the table i will occasionally checkraise with air. but it would have to be playing against a person i know to fold too much/foldhappy. Like the type of guy that whips kk's in faceup after you raise him. Or insta folds to raises throuoght the session.

I don't try to win every pot. I try to win the pots where my hand is good a higher percentage of the time than my opponents. But i try to protect it when it's a hand that even though the best hand is vulnerable if opponent gets to see 2 more cards.

On different flops, turns, and rivers i try to steal pots here and there when i suspect my opponents can be weak. Especially when i can have the hand i'm about to represent. Like i look from my opponent's perspective of what he thinks i'm peeling a flop with. Now if a turn card comes that seems to fit a range of what my opponent think i have i sometimes raise. Especially if i see him as a thief to being with. Another way of saying this is i pick my spots based or their range and what they see my range is. If his range is showing me he is more likely than most to be bluffing and a card on the turn hits what i think my opponent worries is in my range than i make the big bluff raise.

What do you do with KQ jn A82 flop?

I did not say that your opponents never fold when they adjust. I said they will 3 bet you when they are ahead and sometimes when they are not. Read the post don't assume people call with 64, k7 etc. or even open raise with it.

So you wind up calling their 3 when you are behind or playing out of position not sure where you are because they showed strnghth.

You may take down some small pots when you are ahead. But that didnt maximize. Read the posts dont read more into the posts.

Lol and diss all you want but many folks seem to point out lots of reasons as too why they disagree. You do not seem open to any if it except as fodder for trolling.

I think you're misusing my "get me" comment. I was referring to all the posters trying to find mistakes in my overall game. To catch me saying something wrong or stupid like a fishy would because their upset i didn't cow down to the hierarchy. Thinking i should have just accepted being talked down to and insulted. Not get me in the sense i want my opponents to adjust to me in the hand if that's what you mean?

I make the plays because i feel i have the best hand more often than not. And i don't want people sitting in position getting to see 2 free cards to suckout. All this adjust stuff offsets. If you adjust to me than i adjust to you. But nothing changes the fact that with most people's late raising ranges being wide, and i having a tighter calling range in bb, and me flopping a pair, that i stand to have the best hand more often than not. And that most people will fold a wide range of face cards and middle cards here to a checkraise. Thus why i say should it be standard? All these adjustments being made is not the norm. I'm not facing Phil Ivey who knows my exact range in bb, knows my exact range to checkraise, knows how often i bet, check. check call, bet fold bet call the turn etc...

I'm referring to if i walk into a casino and sit down in a mid high stakes game and have this situation from the bb should it be standard to checkraise? So standard player on button opens should i make the play. Not how superstars would adjust re-adjust float river and checkraise the ocean. But again, even against superstar i don't see where he owns me.

Just on this flop texture and these positions. I decide based on position and how the hand ranges change drastically. Like if my opponent was utg in a full ring i wouldn't do this because he's gonna be much stronger more often(77-AAAKAQAJ etc). Then again I probably wouldn't be in preflop to begin with unless a much more solid holding.

But i am somewhat aggressive when oop in general not wanting to give free cards when i think decent chance i have the best hand.

Or did you just mean in these spots late raise vs my bb board textures? If so, No, i don't put the late raise to the test everytime. It depends on the boards. I tend to less often checkraise/play aggressive with small pairs and bluffs on wetter or drawier boards. As i feel it much more likely for not onmly my opponent to call the checkraise but have decent outs to outdraw on turn. For instance j106(especially 2 or 3 suit). I prolly wont checkraise 6 as the j and 10 are in a range of hands that people play. Like he can have q9,kq,89,k9,78 type hands. So i'd check call and see what the turn brings before deciding how to continue.

I'm not dissing you. It was you dissing me and i returned the favor. Once you stop dissing i don't re-dis. Adjust re-adjust. Here i'll adjust first. I enjoyed discussing with you. I'm open for discussion and ok with people disagreeing. Hell, i might be wrong. But if you're gonna tell me i'm wrong and say i have misconceptions/weak well prove that! But whether right or wrong it seems alot closer than before no? Maybe not such a basic decision from a noob that got thrown into the beginner forum for discussion.

Im curious, What do you do with KQ in the A82 flop?

First of all, if u have no pair you fold like 60% of your range with no c/c range.
So if he bet any 2 card he wins money more often then not, bad for you,right?

If you happen to hit your 40% pair or draw for c/r , you spend 2sb ( wich is 1BB) to protect from the share of villain (with 6 outs = 1,25 BB x 24% ( 2street)of 0,3 BB.
If i guess this right, villain has 6 outs twice ( turn and river) wich means around 24% of equity in a 1,25 BB.
His share is 0,3BB.
Why spend 1 BB ( 2sb cost when you c/r flop) is so important to protect a 0,3 BB share of villain ?

Seem to me, spending 1 $ to protect 30 cent value is too much to pay to be afraid of a 6 outers.

i am a bit drunk but am i mistaking ?

I mentioned earlier; having a narrow x/c range on dry flops is a good thing. So I kinda agree with darkcheck (not with his reasoning though)

We rarely float on dry boards. Our contjnue range will be stronger than a late position open+cbet. If both people know this, then we should be raising our stronger range.

Exploiting people who fold KQ to a x/r is also huge.

Much tougher against an early position raise. If they fold KK then we could profitably x/r and lead turn.

Ha ha, it doesn't "hurt" any argument. I'm trying to decipher how you continue the hand.

So you'll bet and call the turn some of the time against the light peelers. I imagine you think they are bluffing when you call.

We've put in 3BB after the flop against the tricky light peeler and bloated the pot. Wouldn't it be better against this type of opponent to let them bluff without bloating the pot when they are ahead?

Do you ever fold the river unimproved against this type of player getting 9:1? That's the 4th BB we put in after the flop in this line!

What do you mean shut down? Check/fold? or check/call?

Tying to bluff pocket pairs that beat the middle card is crazy talk. They are never folding.

Question: you said you have no flop calling range. Do you think this is the most profitable line when you flop and A or better and your opponent is drawing "virtually" dead but they fold? Have you thought of how many bets you lose in those cases?

Where is this 40/80 game where people fold KK HU against the blind? In this case, you can play your hand blind all the way to the river. No need to discuss anything.